RFTF to ATO Progress
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"The DGAC provide two Manuals and the FFA a third. Fill in the blanks, submit, wait for approval. No charge! But you must have Level 6 French!"
Now what I can't figure out here is if this is good enough for the french why isn't it good enough for us. Are we not now all supposed to be singing from the same EASA hymn sheet?
Dare I ask are we gold plating?
Now what I can't figure out here is if this is good enough for the french why isn't it good enough for us. Are we not now all supposed to be singing from the same EASA hymn sheet?
Dare I ask are we gold plating?
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Be careful what you wish for! The rate currently charged by EASA at Cologne for processing ATO applications is £214.60 per hour! Then there’s the additional add-ons … travel and accommodation costs etc etc. Might be worthwhile checking how much the French charge?
The Irish model seems the most sensible solution by far. All RTF’s were automatically accepted as ATO’s – without incurring any fees. So,why can’t the CAA do the same?
We might think that we should be singing from the same hymn sheet but some member states seem to have achieved Level 6 at gold plating.
The Irish model seems the most sensible solution by far. All RTF’s were automatically accepted as ATO’s – without incurring any fees. So,why can’t the CAA do the same?
We might think that we should be singing from the same hymn sheet but some member states seem to have achieved Level 6 at gold plating.
Last edited by Overthere67; 21st Feb 2014 at 08:19.
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To MK from DK
On a personal basis, I find the whole process a bit sad. I've been an FE/FI since 1975. Nearly 200 pilots taught and 14,600 hrs. so I'd like to think I must have been doing something right. But the process from RTF to ATO and the subsequent regulation has persuaded me hand in my instructor rating when the deadline arrives. I'll keep up the DA work tho. DRK.
But the process from RTF to ATO and the subsequent regulation has persuaded me hand in my instructor rating when the deadline arrives.
I'm sure you won't be the last pillar of the GA training world driven out of the industry by bureaucracy and dogma. 
MJ
With the various recent reshuffles at the CAA it appears that FCL/PLD/Approvals has largely disintegrated with PPL ATOs now coming under the remit of the new GA Department and the larger ATOs under Flight Ops Dept.
...FCL/PLD/Approvals has largely disintegrated with PPL ATOs now coming under the remit of the new GA Department...
So, the means to change has been provided, now we will see if the will to change is really there.MJ
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Battling away completing our manuals as requested by the competent Authority, just been to another School where the competent Authority had recently completed an inspection and they held up a certain company's SMS manual as a shining example, the school then pointed out that certain company had recently had a serious accident killing quite a few people, does not matter how good the paper work, its the training that counts.
They may well be able to talk the talk, but its the walking that counts.
Noticed last application 6 pages this time 15 pages plus requesting photo ID of all instructors.
They may well be able to talk the talk, but its the walking that counts.
Noticed last application 6 pages this time 15 pages plus requesting photo ID of all instructors.
The CAA claim that their conversion process is 'the most simplified in Europe.' Anyone know of simpler versions elsewhere? For instance, it seems that in Ireland there is no process, with RTFs automatically becoming ATOs. Perhaps someone from Ireland can confirm that?
Let's hear about some of the others and find out who really has the 'most simplified' conversion.
MJ
The Irish model seems the most sensible solution by far. All RTF’s were automatically accepted as ATO’s – without incurring any fees. So,why can’t the CAA do the same?
MJ
Last edited by Mach Jump; 12th Mar 2014 at 05:41.
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You really do wonder which planet Andrew Haines (Chief Exec of the CAA) inhabits, when you read of his claim that the CAA ATO application process is 'probably now the most simplified process in Europe'. (A statement which, in itself is questionable!)
What is it that the CAA still doesn't understand about General Aviation?
The 'off the shelf template' is both unnecessarily complex and very time consuming for many small flight training organisations. Can anyone at the CAA explain the safety benefits of forcing this on RTF's, because at the moment it just seems like yet another expensive unwanted EASA/CAA paper exercise with no real purpose. What it is succeeding in doing is to drive some extremely experienced and highly respected RTF's out of business - experience that GA can ill afford to lose.
I am not alone in thinking that the new GA Unit will make no difference whatsoever to the demise of GA in the UK. It's the usual case of the same old CAA culture. Nothing seems to change!
What is it that the CAA still doesn't understand about General Aviation?
The 'off the shelf template' is both unnecessarily complex and very time consuming for many small flight training organisations. Can anyone at the CAA explain the safety benefits of forcing this on RTF's, because at the moment it just seems like yet another expensive unwanted EASA/CAA paper exercise with no real purpose. What it is succeeding in doing is to drive some extremely experienced and highly respected RTF's out of business - experience that GA can ill afford to lose.
I am not alone in thinking that the new GA Unit will make no difference whatsoever to the demise of GA in the UK. It's the usual case of the same old CAA culture. Nothing seems to change!
Last edited by Overthere67; 12th Mar 2014 at 20:48.
If Mr. Haines' Instructor is reading this, maybe he can persuade him to register here and tell us what we can expect from the CAA in the next few months, as their comunication skills seem sadly lacking.
Can anyone confirm the situation in Ireland with regard to thr ATO conversion?
MJ
Can anyone confirm the situation in Ireland with regard to thr ATO conversion?
MJ
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IAA transition from RTF to ATO.
Before being able to provide training for any other Part-FCL licence, such as the Light Aircraft Pilot Licence (LAPL), a RTF must have obtained certification as an ATO in full compliance with Part-ORA and Part-FCL. Any organisation intending to provide training for the Part-FCL PPL, that does not hold RTF approval prior to 07 April 2013, must apply for and achieve ATO certification in full compliance with Part- ORA and Part-FCL prior to training being commenced.
The final date for completion of a RTF application under JAR-FCL will be 07 March 2013, however, applicants should ensure that any application or submission is completed in full in order that the approval can be processed and granted prior to 07 April 2013. Any registration applied for but not completed by 07 April 2013 will not be granted. In such cases a new application for approval as an ATO under Part-ORA will be required.
The arrangements for transition from RTF to ATO status will be subject to a conversion report which will be submitted by the IAA to EASA and subject to that organisations agreement.
It must be emphasised that any organisation which intends to continue as a RTF, until 08 April 2015 at the latest, will be able to offer training for the Private Pilot Licence only, they will not be able to offer training for any other EASA Aircrew Licence, rating or certificate such as the Light Aeroplane Pilot Licence or Aerobatics Rating.
The final date for completion of a RTF application under JAR-FCL will be 07 March 2013, however, applicants should ensure that any application or submission is completed in full in order that the approval can be processed and granted prior to 07 April 2013. Any registration applied for but not completed by 07 April 2013 will not be granted. In such cases a new application for approval as an ATO under Part-ORA will be required.
The arrangements for transition from RTF to ATO status will be subject to a conversion report which will be submitted by the IAA to EASA and subject to that organisations agreement.
It must be emphasised that any organisation which intends to continue as a RTF, until 08 April 2015 at the latest, will be able to offer training for the Private Pilot Licence only, they will not be able to offer training for any other EASA Aircrew Licence, rating or certificate such as the Light Aeroplane Pilot Licence or Aerobatics Rating.
Ok.....
I thought I was making myself clear, but perhaps not. Let me try again.
What, exactly, are the IAA making the RTFs do in order to;
MJ
I thought I was making myself clear, but perhaps not. Let me try again.
What, exactly, are the IAA making the RTFs do in order to;
Comply with the applicable requirements of Part-ORA
MJ
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The assumption is that the Irish Aviation Authority is somehow making the process of an Irish RF becoming an ATO somewhat less onerous vis-a-vis that which pertains in the UK; If that is the case I wonder why so many Irish RFs have sought a copy of UK CAA RF-to-ATO template. So, perhaps some Irish RF or indeed the IAA can enlighten us to the actualities, as opposed to a glib quip of 'comply with Part ORA'
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