Solo supervision Lapsed SEP
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Solo supervision Lapsed SEP
The student has a PPL, his SEP is lapsed, he needs a training to prepare himself for the renewal SEP skill test.
- May the student fly solo if supervised by an instructor. (Under JAR such thing was allowed in France for instance.)
- Would that solo flight count for FI restriction removal?
- May the student fly solo if supervised by an instructor. (Under JAR such thing was allowed in France for instance.)
- Would that solo flight count for FI restriction removal?
he needs a training to prepare himself for the renewal SEP skill test.
As such a flight now has to be conducted at an ATO (or RF) surely they will have some say regarding the suitability of a solo consolidation flight!
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So what value is there flying solo for this event?
Basically they want to go and bang some circuits in to practise.
And one wanted to go on a xcountry as well, so we went on a triangle as they requested and then I sent him off on a land away.
My opinion is if the student wants to spend money on more than is required who am I to tell them how to spend their money.
I wouldn't say it should count but as the whole FI derestriction thing is a joke I can't really get fussed about it. But you are leaving yourself open to getting the paper work sent back depending who is looking at it.
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To my understanding supervised solo flight is only allowable to someone who does not hold a licence. If the pilot holds a licence and the rating is lapsed then it is training as required to pass a test. There is no room for solo practice as either the pilot is ready for test or requires further training, there is no in-between.
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It's certainly a grey area, with no specific provision in the law, as bose-x says the only time solo flight is covered in the law is for people who don't have licences.
However, I'd say common sense should prevail, and if the student wanted to bash the circuit, or practice a pre-planned nav, I don't see why they couldn't do this on their own.
I'd say no.
However, I'd say common sense should prevail, and if the student wanted to bash the circuit, or practice a pre-planned nav, I don't see why they couldn't do this on their own.
Would that solo flight count for FI restriction removal?
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I don't see it as a grey area. The law is actually very clear, in order to fly solo as the holder of a pilots licence, you must have a valid rating. If the rating has lapsed then you can't fly solo. In order to regain the rating you must undertake training as defined by the HoT of an ATO and take a skill test.
Certainly as a HoT myself, there is no way I would permit solo flight for a pilot training to regain a rating.
Certainly as a HoT myself, there is no way I would permit solo flight for a pilot training to regain a rating.
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Originally Posted by Whopity
So what value is there flying solo for this event?
It might also be possible that your student is ready but no FE is available. To keep your student current, flying solo seems a good idea.
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Rubbish. Thats a very poor justification.
There is no benefit whatsoever in sending someone renewing a rating off for solo training. They do the training as required to pass the test, get the test done and move on.
I have tested hundreds of people in the same situation.
There is no benefit whatsoever in sending someone renewing a rating off for solo training. They do the training as required to pass the test, get the test done and move on.
I have tested hundreds of people in the same situation.
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As such a flight now has to be conducted at an ATO (or RF) surely they will have some say regarding the suitability of a solo consolidation flight!
FCL.140.A
Holders of a LAPL(A) who do not comply with the requirements in (a) shall:
...
(2) perform the additional flight time or take-offs and landings, flying dual or solo under the supervision of an instructor, in order to fulfil the requirements in (a)
...
(2) perform the additional flight time or take-offs and landings, flying dual or solo under the supervision of an instructor, in order to fulfil the requirements in (a)
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To my understanding supervised solo flight is only allowable to someone who does not hold a licence. If the pilot holds a licence and the rating is lapsed then it is training as required to pass a test. There is no room for solo practice as either the pilot is ready for test or requires further training, there is no in-between.
The CAA confirmed it was acceptable for lapsed SEP's class ratings as previously they had a requirement for solo time after a certain period. But this was 9 years ago now.
Now it could very well be that it has changed under EASA. But there are lots of instructors that have done it and will continue to do it.
And what's the safety case to stop it or not allow it?
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I don't think its a matter of a safety case. There is no point to it. The requirements are training to pass the test. When they are ready to pass the test they take it. What is the point of sending someone off solo. If you deem them safe to solo you deem them ready to pass the test in my opinion.
I personally think it is to much of a bag of worms to open up sending someone with a lapsed rating off to swan around solo.
ifitaint, with all respect throwing the LAPL into the equation is a bit of a misnomer. I can't find anything similar for a PPL, have you?
I personally think it is to much of a bag of worms to open up sending someone with a lapsed rating off to swan around solo.
ifitaint, with all respect throwing the LAPL into the equation is a bit of a misnomer. I can't find anything similar for a PPL, have you?
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I personally think it is to much of a bag of worms to open up sending someone with a lapsed rating off to swan around solo.
Apart from anything I hate doing bloody circuits so as soon as they are safe they can go and practise by themselves while I go and do something more productive like get some peace and quiet with a newspaper in a small cubical.
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Have to say I'm strongly on MJ's side in this discussion.
Ask yourself, what's the purpose of solo flying in the basic PPL training course? If it is just to satisfy the regulators requirement for 10 hours P1 then there would seem to be no justification for sending a lapsed licence holder on solo flights prior to renewal by skill test. However, the requirement for pre-licence solo is clearly not just a box ticking exercise but rather an opportunity for the tyro pilot to develop his confidence, hone his judgement end decision making skills.
A pilot who holds a licence, possibly expired many years ago, needs to develop these skills just the same as the new pilot does hence solo flying is perfectly justifiable in appropriate cases.
This, as I see it, is one of the great benefits of Part FCL. As Head of Training it is entirely within my gift to assess that a particular individual would benefit from solo practice and to send him off on his own just as I would for a ab-initio student.
Bose,
Consider a pilot who did his PPL 25 years ago, flew a total of 100 hours over the next two years and has not flown since. His licence (old CAA lifetime variety) is still valid but his SEP rating is long expired. Can you see that this (albeit extreme) case is just like a basic PPL student and therefore needs solo as part of his training? Indeed, the AMC suggests that for a rating renewal after just three years then entire training should be repeated - surely this would include solo flying??
I have sent renewal students on solo flights before and would certainly do so again if I felt it would be of benefit.
As far as using these solos towards de-restricting an inexperienced instructor; I don't see why not. The process of sending a student off on a solo is essentially the same. I don't work with restricted FIs in my school so not something I've ever considered.
Happy landings
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Ask yourself, what's the purpose of solo flying in the basic PPL training course? If it is just to satisfy the regulators requirement for 10 hours P1 then there would seem to be no justification for sending a lapsed licence holder on solo flights prior to renewal by skill test. However, the requirement for pre-licence solo is clearly not just a box ticking exercise but rather an opportunity for the tyro pilot to develop his confidence, hone his judgement end decision making skills.
A pilot who holds a licence, possibly expired many years ago, needs to develop these skills just the same as the new pilot does hence solo flying is perfectly justifiable in appropriate cases.
This, as I see it, is one of the great benefits of Part FCL. As Head of Training it is entirely within my gift to assess that a particular individual would benefit from solo practice and to send him off on his own just as I would for a ab-initio student.
Bose,
Consider a pilot who did his PPL 25 years ago, flew a total of 100 hours over the next two years and has not flown since. His licence (old CAA lifetime variety) is still valid but his SEP rating is long expired. Can you see that this (albeit extreme) case is just like a basic PPL student and therefore needs solo as part of his training? Indeed, the AMC suggests that for a rating renewal after just three years then entire training should be repeated - surely this would include solo flying??
I have sent renewal students on solo flights before and would certainly do so again if I felt it would be of benefit.
As far as using these solos towards de-restricting an inexperienced instructor; I don't see why not. The process of sending a student off on a solo is essentially the same. I don't work with restricted FIs in my school so not something I've ever considered.
Happy landings
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I can't find anything similar for a PPL, have you?
Once the ATO has determined the needs of the applicant, it should develop an individual training programme that should be based on the initial training for the issue of the rating and focus on the aspects where the applicant has shown the greatest needs.
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And after they have passed the test what then they go off unsupervised solo or with innocent pax onboard.
Far better they get there PIC skills up under supervision than not.
I don't train for tests they are the lowest standard which I will accept.
If the person wants more training than the minimum required then they can have it. I have no doubt that some will say well do the test then they can do any extra they like.
But realistically they will gain more from flying solo in the circuit that having a big lump sitting next to them. They just need the old wiring opened up to get the touch back.
Far better they get there PIC skills up under supervision than not.
I don't train for tests they are the lowest standard which I will accept.
If the person wants more training than the minimum required then they can have it. I have no doubt that some will say well do the test then they can do any extra they like.
But realistically they will gain more from flying solo in the circuit that having a big lump sitting next to them. They just need the old wiring opened up to get the touch back.
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Absolutely nothing abnormal your covered was the reply when I asked the insurance firm the first time I did it, 60 second phone call followed by a fax 5 mins later confirming it.
As for the AAIB I presume what ever they normally say after a student has an accident solo. A solo student under flight instructor supervision.
As I said I have been reported to the CAA for doing it with JAR rules enforce and the head of policy said it was fine and the examiner should do the test.
As for the AAIB I presume what ever they normally say after a student has an accident solo. A solo student under flight instructor supervision.
As I said I have been reported to the CAA for doing it with JAR rules enforce and the head of policy said it was fine and the examiner should do the test.
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"Bose-X is correct and BTW"
dhorgan, what's the basis on which you make this statement? Where does it say so in the regulations? As I and others have said, the HoT of an ATO is empowered to devise an appropriate training programme. The AMC specifically says ...
"develop an individual training programme that should be based on the initial training for the issue of the rating" (thanks ifitaint...)
so, that would include solo flying where judged relevant by an HoT.
Insurance? My club insurance covers the aeroplane to be flown by students for training - no issue there.
AAIB? Ditto what MJ said
Let's not invent difficulties and complications which do not exist in the regulations. rather, lets work within the rules to deliver quality training for our students and make them into safe, competent and confident pilots.
3 Point
dhorgan, what's the basis on which you make this statement? Where does it say so in the regulations? As I and others have said, the HoT of an ATO is empowered to devise an appropriate training programme. The AMC specifically says ...
"develop an individual training programme that should be based on the initial training for the issue of the rating" (thanks ifitaint...)
so, that would include solo flying where judged relevant by an HoT.
Insurance? My club insurance covers the aeroplane to be flown by students for training - no issue there.
AAIB? Ditto what MJ said
Let's not invent difficulties and complications which do not exist in the regulations. rather, lets work within the rules to deliver quality training for our students and make them into safe, competent and confident pilots.
3 Point