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Flying Instructors & Examiners A place for instructors to communicate with one another because some of them get a bit tired of the attitude that instructing is the lowest form of aviation, as seems to prevail on some of the other forums!


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Old 10th Nov 2012, 19:27   #1 (permalink)
 
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FE / CRE Examiners Assessing English Language Proficiency

I cannot find it to hand to quote but, to paraphrase EASA FCL AMC, "a
candidate's language proficiency can be assessed by Flight Test or during
normal instruction".

CAP 804 Section 4 Part M states:
b) At a Flight Test
Type Rating Examiners (TREs), Flight Examiners (FEs) and Class Rating Examiners
(CREs), who have themselves been assessed asproficient at Level 6 in English
and are authorised by the CAA as English Language Assessors, may include
assessment of the language proficiency of existingholders of licences issued by
the UK CAA (Part-FCL or national) as part of the licenceproficiency check that is
conducted for the revalidation or renewal of arating or certificate. If the examiner
assesses the candidate as being Expert Level 6 (thestandard of a native speaker
of English) he may certify to that effect bysubmitting a Form SRG1199 to the CAA.
If the Examiner considers that the applicant is notat Level 6 the Examiner must
not give a proficiency endorsement. The applicantshould then seek an expert
assessment, such as through a CAA approved language school as under (c) below.
A UK FRTOL held by a licence holder will not bevalid unless and until the applicant
has a valid endorsement oflanguage proficiency at Level 4, 5 or 6.

So No:
- Just talking with a candidate
- Flying with the candidate (unless an LPC) - So bi-annual flight with Instructor (who is also and Examiner) does not count.
- Initial Rating Test (ie IR, IMC, MEP doesn't count) which is just barmy!

From
Flyer Air Portal 9th November 2012 GA News
Ray Elgy, Head of Licensing and Training Standards at the CAA,said, ”Obtaining a Level 6 endorsement is relatively straightforward. AnyFlight Examiner can give a pilot a non-expiring Level 6 endorsement on thebasis of a simple conversation on the ground. Pilots whose licences have, orare due to expire, should therefore contact their local Flight Examiner as soonas possible.”

So either:
- Flyer is now the CAA's method of communicating rule changes to the Aviation Community.
- Poor reporting
- Or CAA Head of Licensing doesn't know the rules his own depatment have promulgated.

I would write/email CAA to point out these "anomalies" but I am just one
person (and my previous emails to them remain unanswered).

Is anyone on PPRuNe a member of an organisation (AOPA, Flyer, etc)? Which has a greater chance of at least being heard (if not listened to) by CAA in order that they could ammend their Directions which are currently, I understand, creating more work for themselves anyway as they are having
to reject EASA Part-FCL applications due to no Language Proficiency assessment being on record.


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Old 10th Nov 2012, 19:49   #2 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
A UK FRTOL held using the English language communication by a licence holder will not bevalid unless and until the applicant
has a valid endorsement of language proficiency at Level 4, 5 or 6.
Priceless tripe! To get a FRTOL the candidate has to demonstrate to a qualified examiner that they can make all the standard calls used for radio communication using the English language. You could not pass the test if you were below level 4!

The rest of it is fairly typical of the communication that emanates from the CAA theses days.
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Old 10th Nov 2012, 20:01   #3 (permalink)
 
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The CAA have unfortunately brought this ludicrous state of affairs upon themselves due to the ponderous, bureaucratic way they brought in this whole ICAO English thing in the first place.

One of the many reasons I gave up civil flying - being expected to prove, after 10000 hrs and 35 years of military and civil flying, 'O' level English language in 1965 and Use of English in 1967, that I could speak my mother tongue....

Arrant b£oody nonsense!

I later asked whether we could make Level 6 assessments during the course of AOPA seminars; this was refused.....
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Old 10th Nov 2012, 20:56   #4 (permalink)
 
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Use a little imagination and apply some common sense and it all works!
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Old 12th Nov 2012, 10:03   #5 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Flyer is now the CAA's method of communicating rule changes to the Aviation Community.
It's under 'Latest News' on the CAA website:

GA pilots asked to renew language requirement | CAA Newsroom | About the CAA
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Old 12th Nov 2012, 17:30   #6 (permalink)
 
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It has also been on the CAA website since 2008 and included the following statement:
Quote:
Other Acceptable Means
Language proficiency may also be assessed by other means acceptable to the CAA.

Some suggested means of informal assessment are:

* Informal assessment as part of an employment selection procedure
* Informal assessment by CRMI during operator's training
* Informal assessment during line flights
* Informal assessment at FI seminars and CAA safety presentations
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Old 15th Nov 2012, 16:11   #7 (permalink)
 
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Can anyone tell me what are the implications of "Language proficiency: English", which is all it says on my licence? Does this imply level 6, or does this imply that it is as yet unassessed?
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Old 15th Nov 2012, 18:06   #8 (permalink)
RJC
 
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Quote:
Can anyone tell me what are the implications of "Language proficiency: English", which is all it says on my licence? Does this imply level 6, or does this imply that it is as yet unassessed?
Ditto.

In LASORS 2010 the entry is mentioned...

Quote:
The CAA has complied with the ICAO and JAR
requirements by adding the endorsement “Language
Proficiency: English” to licences issued in the UK where
a FRTOL is also held and/or the licence holder has been
assessed and recorded as achieving Level 4, 5 or 6.
So take your pick, it seems only the EASA licences contain the actual level number but you won't be issued with one unless you have provided evidence. Details on how to get that are in CAP804, Section 4 Part M (page 443). Basically form SRG 1199 needs to end up with the CAA after passing a suitable person to sign it.

I think it reads that if you have any kind of test or check in the past few years your examiner should have completed the form and sent it in. The only way to know for sure is to contact the CAA and ask them I guess?
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Old 17th Nov 2012, 01:53   #9 (permalink)
 
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From Quote to References

When I first Posted I hadn't realised Flyer were simply quoting
CAA "Latest News" 09 Nov.

However, if you now try and access this article on the CAA website it takes
you to an updated (16 Nov) version in which the quote from CAA Head of
Licensing has been removed.

The advice now being:
[QUOTE]
Fulldetails of how to renew a language proficiency endorsement are set out in www.caa.co.uk/cap804Part 1, Section4, Part M
[/QUOTE]

Taking the this advice I revisited CAP804 and found this, which I hadn't seen before:
[QUOTE]
CAP804 Part 1, Section 4, Part M

5.1Transitionalarrangements for existing UK licence holders

UK licence holders who need torevalidate/renew a language proficiency
endorsement previously granted by the UK CAA may do so by:

a) passing a language assessment or test asset out in 4.1 above; or

b) passing a language assessment as set outin FCL.055(b) and AMC1FCL.055 section (a) to (l) inclusive, with theholder of a UK Examiner Certificate; (see Note 1). If the examiner assesses thecandidate as being Expert Level 6 (the standard of a native speaker of English) hemay certify to that effect by submitting a Form SRG 1199 to the CAA. If the examiner considers that theapplicant is not at Level 6 the examiner must not give aproficiency endorsement, in which case the alternative means of assessment of 4.1c), d), or e) must be used.

NOTE 1:
For these purposes a holderof a UK Examiner Certificate is any holder of a valid FE,
TRE, CRE, IRE, SFE or FIE certificate issued by the UK CAA.
[/QUOTE]

I then checked this:
[QUOTE]
Part-FCL AMC No.1 to FCL.055

(g) The assessment may be conducted during one of theseveral existing checking or training activities, such as licence issue or rating issue andrevalidation, line training, operator line checks or proficiency checks.
[/QUOTE]

From the above I believe CAA Head of Licensing was correct (so why remove his quote?) and I can now the/an official source can be cited.
Level Attitude is offline   Reply
Old 19th Nov 2012, 08:06   #10 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
NOTE 1:
For these purposes a holder of a UK Examiner Certificate is any holder of a valid FE,
TRE, CRE, IRE, SFE or FIE certificate issued by the UK CAA.
Interesting, because that list does not include RTF Examiners who were the first people to be authorised to do this back in 2005!
Quote:
"Language proficiency: English", which is all it says on my licence? Does this imply level 6
If you were issued with a licence originally that contained English Language Proficiency, then that would probably have been the result of a Level 6 on the original licence application form which the applicant signed.

If you were reissued a licence with English Language Proficiency on it, with no action from you, it will be Level 4.

If you have re-validated a licence, any upgrade to Level 6 will have been on the form signed by the applicant therefore; anyone with Level 6 should know about it . If you don't you can only assume Level 4.
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Old 19th Nov 2012, 20:26   #11 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Quote:
NOTE 1:
For these purposes a holder of a UK Examiner Certificate is any holder of a valid FE,
TRE, CRE, IRE, SFE or FIE certificate issued by the UK CAA.

Interesting, because that list does not include RTF Examiners who were the first people to be authorised to do this back in 2005!
RTF Examiners are mentioned - but in Section 4 and they can only assess by
conducting an RT Test.

Section 5 (which is the part I originaly missed) deals with those who have a License/FRTOL but might not have a current Language Proficiency recorded.
CAA probably assumed these people would not want to sit another RT Practical.

As Section 5 says Part-FCL.055 is acceptable then assessment by FEs, etc during (any) flight is acceptable - which removes the main reasons why I posted in the first instance.

Part-FCL.055 does not, however, say someone can be assessed by having a chat with them - and this might be the reason the Head of Licensing's quote has been removed.

But "normal checking...........License issue" is included so Examiners could interpret this very liberaly - as, according to some other Posters, the CAA themselves have been doing at the counter in Gatwick.

Since 17th September 2012 Part-FCL and CAP804 rule!
Learning to understand, interpret and apply them is difficult. Thank goodness for forums such as this which offer far more help than the CAA themselves.
However, apart from as a matter of historical interest, quoting anything dated
before 17/09/12 probably does not help.
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Old 20th Nov 2012, 08:12   #12 (permalink)
 
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Here is an interesting anomaly in CAP 804. In section 4 Part M it states:
Quote:
Whilst the EU regulations include language proficiency standards (as they are
included in ICAO Annex 1), they do not include the requirements to be complied with
to be granted a licence to operate radio communication equipment installed in an
aircraft;
such licences remain under national legislation. In the UK this is a Flight
Radiotelephony Operator’s Licence (FRTOL) – See Section 6 of this CAP 804.
but in Section 6 it states:

Quote:
3.2.3 Applicants for the FRTOL shall have demonstrated language proficiency in English at
Level 4, 5 or 6, which must be valid on the date that the FRTOL is issued.
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Old 6th Dec 2012, 17:16   #13 (permalink)
 
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"And I thought it couldn't get worse"
First, and I hope it stays close to the theme of this thread, the SRG 1199 in General Guidance, states "Section 3 should only be used for language assessment...during a flying or radio licence test...
This is often quoted if the CAA is contacted directly and at least one examiner I know is unable to confirm level 6, if revalidating by experience or to assist someone who is trying to change to an EASA licence, where there is no record of level 6 with the CAA.( I understand that an IN is on its way!)

Second, and it happened today. Contacted by a club PPL, "JAR to EASA" PPL application halted, due no evidence of level 6. PPL granted in 2007 and I have revalidated the PPL twice since then, once by experience and once by test. Both times used SRG1119 and signed "level 6" on page 2. CAA today can find no evidence of level 6, either on a paper copy of the SRG 1119, or recorded electronocally. By the way, the car park was full and they had four people on the L&TS desk!
My only suggestion is to include a SRG 1199 with an EASA licence application, and that is what I am advising the PPLs I know. As an FE I am expected to comply with CAA rulings, standards and protocols. I am expected to retain all copies of my work as an examiner, but I feel very angry that the CAA are so incompetent.

Last edited by pembroke; 6th Dec 2012 at 17:16.
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Old 6th Dec 2012, 20:56   #14 (permalink)
 
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The CAA and LAA both had stands at the recent Flying Exhibition in Birmingham and had Examiners
on hand to assess people's language proficiency.

Excellent Great Idea

But were the guys who kindly gave up their time qualified language assessors, or
were they "just" Examiners?

In which case how, within the rules, did they assess candidates?

If, as pembroke says, there is an IN coming on this subject then it is not a
moment too soon.
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Old 6th Dec 2012, 21:47   #15 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
CAA today can find no evidence of level 6, either on a paper copy of the SRG 1119, or recorded electronically
The SRG 1119 when it reaches the CAA is scanned; there is no electronic data entry and I believe the paper copies are then destroyed. They simple answer is that they would have to look through all the scanned material from the last 5 years to find the ticked boxes and that is too much work. You could always ask to see it under FOI, then they would have to find it!
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Old 7th Dec 2012, 16:58   #16 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
But were the guys who kindly gave up their time qualified language assessors, or were they "just" Examiners?
"Just" examiners, using guidance contained within CAP 804, Section 4, Part M, Page 4, 5.1 (b): Transitional arrangements for existing UK licence holders.

Quote:
b) passing a language assessment as set out in FCL.055(b) and AMC1 FCL.055 section (a) to (l) inclusive, with the holder of a UK Examiner Certificate; (see Note 1). If the examiner assesses the candidate as being Expert Level 6 (the standard of a native speaker of English) he may certify to that effect by submitting a Form SRG 1199 to the CAA. If the examiner considers that the applicant is not at Level 6 the examiner must not give a proficiency endorsement, in which case the alternative means of assessment of 4.1 c), d), or e) must be used.
It requires you to go into the relevant document (FCL.055(b) and AMC1 FCL.055) to find what they want you to assess, which for native english speakers amounts to a brief conversation and a number of practical R/T examples. It is not a test, but an assessment, so you may provide training input which also ticks a number of other requirements.

Quote:
If, as pembroke says, there is an IN coming on this subject then it is not a moment too soon.
The Information Notice may have been compiled from notes which were agreed between the examiners and the CAA for the Flying Show. As I understand it, the Information Notice will also allow RTF Examiners to conduct these assessments, which CAP 804 presently does not.

ifitaint...

Last edited by ifitaintboeing; 7th Dec 2012 at 16:59.
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Old 24th Dec 2012, 15:29   #17 (permalink)
 
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Information Notice 2012-208 and Standards Document 51 now issued.

Merry Christmas.

ifitaint...
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Old 12th Jan 2013, 10:53   #18 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Please note the CAA is unable to accept an English Language Proficiency level endorsed on to another non Part-FCL or non JAR-FCL ICAO compliant pilot’s licence as demonstration of Language Proficiency for the issue of a Part-FCL licence.
!!!!

Last edited by de facto; 12th Jan 2013 at 10:54.
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Old 13th Jan 2013, 11:44   #19 (permalink)
 
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Have any other FEs or RTF examiners been approached by Indian pilots? Apparently many pilots who were trained in the UK have an Indian RT qualification based on their UK CAA FRTOL. As these were level 4 back in 2008, revalidation was needed in 2012, either to level 4 or 5 by a specialist, or level 6 by an FE/TRE.
PS I have raised this on the "South East Asia" forum, not much response, with a comment that this was a "murky" subject with the DGCA, but clarification is obviously needed.
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Old 15th Jan 2013, 10:41   #20 (permalink)
 
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There appears to be a considerable amount of confusion regarding this. A FRTOL is no longer an ICAO licence, consequently, there is no ICAO requirement to include English Proficiency on such a licence if an individual State continues to issue them.

It was a UK CAA decision to grant Level 4 to all UK pilots who needed such an endorsement on their pilots licence for International use (no requirement for National use!). Passing the practical RTF test indicates that the candidate has demonstrated English Language in a practical manner to at least Level 4, consequently that was the level granted in the UK. Quite why the CAA no longer accepts this for initial tests is beyond comprehension as it is probably the best test of compliance with the ICAO requirement anywhere in the World!

The Indian DCA are responsible for English Proficiency endorsements on pilot licences that they issue, holding a UK FRTOL really has nothing to do with it, there is no endorsement upon it, there is no ICAO process to endorse a non ICAO licence and the level 4 granted by the UK CAA was for their own internal use.

If an Indian applicant asks you to sign a SRG1199 it is of no relevance unless he also holds a UK pilot licence, which most do not. If he undergoes a RTF test to renew a UK FRTOL then the examiner can issue a Level 6 on the SRG 1106 provided the candidate is fluent. In 2006 the DCA India stopped accepting the UK FRTOL for conversion to an Indian equivalent unless it was accompanied by a UK issued pilot licence so there is really no valid reasons to receive such requests. They continue nevertheless!
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