Flying Instructors & ExaminersA place for instructors to communicate with one another because some of them get a bit tired of the attitude that instructing is the lowest form of aviation, as seems to prevail on some of the other forums!
Gave all my notes away long time ago so working from memory on this one at the moment.
Assuming student is happy with the hold and entries I plan to start with the approach plate from the point of leaving the FAF all the way down to the MDA. Then explain the missed approach.
Thats how i work my way through an instrument approach briefing:
Approach Briefing
ATIS / Weather (checked?? valid?)
Name of assigned Approach (page/date)
MDA / DA (to be set)
Set Radar Altimeter to height (if applicable)
Final course / set course index/bork
Holding:state entry/planned time outbound/course; inbound
Step-down fix and Final approach heading
Timing FAF/OM to MAP/THR (Wind corrected)
Re-read Missed Approach Procedures-who is doing what?
Who takes over controls at MAP/DA?
Descent and before landing check / Search and landing lights
1. Lateral navigation: Obviously needs to be able to track an NDB, however; stress the desirability of just holding a sensible heading, especially when close to the beacon.
2. Vertical navigation: Instill the Constant-Descent Final Approach (CDFA) principle. Relate vertical speed to groundspeed and be prepared to adjust VS if GS changes. This can be difficult in a slow aircraft without an autopilot but suggest stabilising at a sensible, easy to fly final approach speed which may be higher than that published in the AFM. (See 3. below). Stress the need to cross-check DME/timing against altitude.
3. Speed and config: The faster and cleaner, the better. You don't mention the aircraft type, but assuming a typical training SEP, I would start by flying the hold and approach at normal cruise speed (i.e. around 100 kts). This makes the tasks in 1 and 2 above much easier. Whichever speed/config you decide on, select it before top of descent and maintain it throughout the approach. Keep in trim.
Don't worry about the transition to the visual segment and landing performance at this early stage. Concentrate instead on the mechanics of 1, 2 and 3. Provide clear, simple scan patterns (centred on the AH) that include the ADF needle, DME (or stopwatch) and groundspeed, as well as the altimeter and DI.
Show the student the outside world when you are established on the correct final profile, to instill confidence. Insist on the correct identification of (and actions at) MDA and to start with, always establish on the MAP profile.
Once the above is mastered, it's time to introduce the transition to the visual segment. Flap settings and speed reductions to Vapp can be included. The importance of appropriate attitudes, power settings and trim changes must be highlighted, especially in the event of a go-around.
It seems we are talking about two different things.
One involves how to teach "flying an NDB Approach" the other is the "approach brief" given before actually flying the appraoch.
As for the first the it is critical to go over what is desired flight path both laterally and vertically for the approach and for the missed approached. The beat way is to look at a variety of approach plates and talk through each part of it including speeds, altitudes, aircraft configuration, power settings and radio calls.
For the brief If it is single pilot than I firmly believe the flight school elaborate briefing protocols are stupid. Human factors research clearly shows that people can only remember 4 numbers at a time. So all I want to hear from a student is the final approach course, FAF crossing altitude, MDA, and the first segment of the missed approach.
However before starting descent when things are not too busy I want the student to review the plate and starting thinking about how they are going to get from where they are to established on the final approach course.
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Quote:
For the brief If it is single pilot than I firmly believe the flight school elaborate briefing protocols are stupid. Human factors research clearly shows that people can only remember 4 numbers at a time. So all I want to hear from a student is the final approach course, FAF crossing altitude, MDA, and the first segment of the missed approach.
Agree with that, Pistons. And you should hear some of the Gettysburg Address pre-departure briefs delivered at PPL level for a simple VFR trip in a spamcan these days.....
Always include NOTAMS, no point briefing for an approach which isnt operational!
Checking NOTAMs is a preflight preparation item. If the first time you become aware that the approach you want to fly is not available is the approach brief you are doing it really really wrong.
Pull What, I have to ask to, do you have a pilots license ?
Assuming student is happy with the hold and entries I plan to start with the approach plate from the point of leaving the FAF all the way down to the MDA. Then explain the missed approach.
Would probably be better to start from the IAF, would it not?
Checking NOTAMs is a preflight preparation item. If the first time you become aware that the approach you want to fly is not available is the approach brief you are doing it really really wrong
Wrong- a briefing is also a review of information and as such a reminder of a notamed downgrade, failure or change in minima is an important part of an approach briefing.
You may also be about to fly a type of approach that was not considered at the pre flight planning stage.
You may also be diverting to an airfield that was not considered at the pre fllight planning stage.
Thank you for your concern about my licence but you may find that a better way of making a relevant intelligent point may result from keeping yourself up to date. I recommend airbus.com
Airbus Standard Operating Procedures Conducting Effective Briefings
From the section: APPROACH BRIEFINGS (note the word review)
IX.4 NOTAMs :
Review and discuss enroute and terminal NOTAMs, as applicable, for possible operational impact (e.g., unserviceable navaids, airspace restriction, obstructions / man-made obstacles, ) or additional threat / hazards.
. Thank you for your concern about my licence but you may find that a better way of making a relevant intelligent point may result from keeping yourself up to date. I recommend airbus.com
I recommend that 2 crew professional pilot jet airliner SOPs not be mindlessly applied to single pilot initial IFR training in light piston aircraft .........
Cheers guys. One last thing, can we fly the NDB approach using the CDFA method? Understand some operators use this provided the approach has a VDA. Think most NDB approaches are about 3degrees.
IE Arrive at the MDA or DDA if visual continue to land or execute a missed approach and no turns to be commenced until passed the Mapt. Instead of arriving at MDA and flying level until visual then diving for runway.
...can we fly the NDB approach using the CDFA method?
Here in Euro/JAR/EU-land we are supposed to fly it exactly this way! Since many years. Accordingly, on (western) European Jeppesen plates the "MDA"s have been replaced with "DA"s.
When did this long-winded discussion of life history first start? Does anybody actually listen to so much mouth-music? I'll bet they don't!
Beagle, couldn't agree more! Even in the airline world with some operators the brief gets so long-winded it's beyond my attention span.
There seems to be this belief that if you brief every eventuality under the sun this means the pilot(s) will fly the a/c correctly! My current operator requires as part of the approach brief, windshear and stall recovery! It's sounds nice on the CVR so that people think how wonderful the pilots are but whether the other pilot is even sitting there listening is another matter!
I recommend that 2 crew professional pilot jet airliner SOPs not be mindlessly applied to single pilot initial IFR training in light piston aircraft .....
Do you also recommend that anyone who dares to disagree with you should be asked if they hold a valid licence?
As per my original post I recommend that the inclusion of a review of any relevant Notams should be included in the approach briefing as endorsed by the FAA & Airbus. Notamed information about an unservicable aid or downgrade is just as relevant to a 747 as it is to a Cessna 152 if they intend to use the same aid & approach to land with. In fact this review is more important in a single crew operation because you have to monitor and correct your own mistakes. Briefings are an important part of crew resource management which is a discipline that is by no means exclusive to multi crew operation.
Beagle, couldn't agree more! Even in the airline world with some operators the brief gets so long-winded it's beyond my attention span.
Yes Bob its funny how two professional pilots can enjoy talking complete shit for two hours but rapidly become bored with a 3 minute briefing concerning the safety of the operation.
My how you have changed, nearly 40 years ago I remember you as the instructor who had produced a table for the C172 showing a 1 knot difference in approach speed for every included passenger and fuel combination! Happy days eh!
Do you also recommend that anyone who dares to disagree with you should be asked if they hold a valid licence?
As per my original post I recommend that the inclusion of a review of any relevant Notams should be included in the approach briefing as endorsed by the FAA & Airbus.
.
In the context of this thread For training towards the initial IFR rating in a single pilot, light piston (probably no autopilot) aircraft...................
Not what I teach and something I don't do. The time to review the Notams is when you are in cruise coming up to the top of descent or the first fix in the arrival STAR/transition. This is where you review all the approach plate notes, make any corrections to altitudes required by NOTAMs (pretty rare), cold weather corrections (very common in the winter in Canada), intermediate step down fixes on the final approach course (common in the mountains) and ask yourself the how am I going to get there (ie the MAP) from here ? The last point is extremely important. Building situational awareness in students is hard but it is what will keep them alive and needs to be stressed during training.
When you are established on the approach transition or receiving radar vectors or approaching the beacon to start the full procedure, then you do the "approach brief" which is a review of the killer items, final approach track, FAF crossing altitude, MDA altitude and timing or DME distance, and the first segment of the missed approach procedure. Then you get on with concentrating on flying the aircraft instead of mindlessly spouting the Airbus SOP brief
As for my questioning your qualifications, well after reading most of your posts I started wondering if you were a Walt, as you advance some rather bizarre opinions, and because they usually seem to be idea free and insult rich. If you in fact hold a professional pilot license then I apologize.
Last edited by Big Pistons Forever; 8th Feb 2012 at 22:25.
BPF No need to apologise at all-you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that.
I was responding to this post
Quote:
Approach Briefing
ATIS / Weather (checked?? valid?)
Name of assigned Approach (page/date)
MDA / DA (to be set)
Set Radar Altimeter to height (if applicable)
Final course / set course index/bork
Holding:state entry/planned time outbound/course; inbound
Step-down fix and Final approach heading
Timing FAF/OM to MAP/THR (Wind corrected)
Re-read Missed Approach Procedures-who is doing what?
Who takes over controls at MAP/DA?
Descent and before landing check / Search and landing lights
Sure it΄s not complete.......
We/I always teach weather and notams together for a briefing, EG you cant have one without the other. You correctly made the point that Notams are part of the pre-flight prep but I disagree that they do not need to be reviewed again as using that logic you could cover all of the let down in the pre flight brief and discussion and not have to brief in the air at all.
We use an accident in our training progs(will try and dig it out) were a CFIT accident happened on the approach because the crew failed to review the notams that they had mentioned in the pre-flight that the ILS DME was u/s. They were in fact receiving a DME on the other ILS and descended prematurely into high ground on the approach as a result of the distance error.
I agree that some approach briefings are ridiculous and superfluous as Bob mentioned however I still believe that some items are essential.
Finally the point of a briefing in a single crew operation is to mentally rehearse what you are going to do with the relevant facts together with the relevant information. On two occasions in my career Ive made a complete mess of an NDB approach, On both occasions I was single crew on public transport, on both occasions they were surprise approaches and on both occasions I never briefed myself on any part of them, I tried to fly them as I went along! Believe me, it doesn't work!
