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Flying Instructors & Examiners A place for instructors to communicate with one another because some of them get a bit tired of the attitude that instructing is the lowest form of aviation, as seems to prevail on some of the other forums!


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Old 15th Jan 2012, 13:53   #1 (permalink)


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Has your employer gone bust ?

This is a wake up call to those flying instructors who find themselfs jobless.

In recent months some employers have gone out of business and left employees without pay or redundency pay, if your employer has gone bust and the business is in the hands of the recevers all is well as the government will cover your redundency pay ( well some of it ).

However some employers have told staff that there is no money and have applied to company's house for the company to be wound up, of they do this YOU WILL GET NO GOVENMENT REDUNDENCY MONEY.

It is for you guys to contact company's house and object to the company being wound up by the owners, it is only if you force them into insolvency that you will get the Govenment money you are entitled to.

It would not suprize me if some employers are planning to set up shop under a slightly different name having shed their debts.
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Old 15th Jan 2012, 14:15   #2 (permalink)
 
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With respect, Luddite

You are wrong, wrong, wrong!

Congratulations however on your grammar and spelling.. unbelievable!
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Old 15th Jan 2012, 15:09   #3 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
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If a company is wound up voluntarily any employees are still entitled to redundancy pay because they have lost their jobs with said company. If there are insufficient funds in the business to do this then the company is technically insolvent and will be passed to the official receiver. Anyone who has not received redundancy pay should apply to the receiver who will organise payment from the NI fund. However all statutory redundancy pay is capped at maximum 380 per year of service aged under 40 & 570 per year over 40, so don't expect to be able to retire on it!
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Old 15th Jan 2012, 15:54   #4 (permalink)


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Private jet/talkpedler

You are correct in theory however what usually happens if the employees don't know the score and that if the owners apply for the company to be wound up, and no one flags up the company's outstanding debts then the company then is struck off the register and that will result in no redundency payments to the employees.


It is all very well people saying what should happen, I have been told this by countless flat footed lawyers who act so slowly that the company vanishes before they have got half way towards getting the employees money.

It is essential that employees contact companys house and stop the winding up and then start by serving a Statutory Demand at the companys registered address, once this has been done and companies house know about it then the employees will have time to pause and think about the next move.

With the speed of reply from Private jet & Talkpedlar I have to speculate that they might have an interest in stoping employees contacting companies house and objecting to companies that owe them money being voluntarily wound up.

As someone who has had to object to a voluntary winding up and then having (without the help of the legal profession) to force a company into insolvency I find the advice from Private Jet & Talkpedlar not incorect in legal terms, however in these days of pre-pack companies That enable the unscrupulous to run away from debt you need to act fast otherwise the company will be struck off and there will be no recourse for the employees.

I would just like to see my hard won knowledge with an employer who tried to cut and run used by people who have worked hard only to have their money spirited away by pepole who hide behind a number of companies that they use to evade paying their debts.
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Old 15th Jan 2012, 16:13   #5 (permalink)
 
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Luddite,

Your speculation is incorrect, the only 2 companies i have involvement with are both very solvent and one is not registered in the UK.

Anyways, as far as i understand it, redundancy pay does not cost a company anything because it is a tax deductible expense.
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Old 15th Jan 2012, 16:37   #6 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2001
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you only pay tax when you make a profit.

If your going bust usually your not making a profit.

The reasons for them to wind up in such a manner is so they can escape without a record for the directors. They don't want the recievers involved.

Its ther normal op for certain types of director so they can avoid industrial tribunals etc. If they ever get a complaint they wind it up and then they don't have to pay.
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Old 15th Jan 2012, 16:42   #7 (permalink)


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Private jet

The company that I took to court tried to go for a voluntary winding up and that failed due to objections from the creditors.

The company had no living directors in the last nine months of trading and one company based overseas was the other director on the companies house register.

The overseas company went bankrupt and they folded that company without folding the UK company that I worked for............. The people who ran the show (who took the trouble to not be directors) just set up another company in the same business.

This all happend under the noses of union lawyers who were wrong footed at every turn, the employees could not get any redundency pay from the insolvency service because the company was still technically in business. It was only when myself and one other took the company to court (without any legal help) did anyone get any money from the insolvency service.

It is all very well talking what should in law happen but more and more unscrupulous businessmen are playing fast and loose using EEC borders to confuse the issue untill they are so far away no one can catch up with them.

I have seen some companies in the UK flight training game playing these games and I would like to make sure that the employees have at least a fighting chance of getting the money that they are entitled to.

Your comments about redundency pay being tax deductible are true but these people are reported to owe the tax man a fortune in unpaid PAYE. So that hardly is an issue unless you are a PAYE payer who is trying to get a tax refund on tax that was taken out of your wages but not handed over to the tax man by your former employer.

Perhaps now you get the picture of how these people try to operate.
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Old 16th Jan 2012, 05:38   #8 (permalink)


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Wrong wrong wrong ?

I was rather hoping to hear from Talkpedlar with a few more details of why in his words I was wrong, wrong, wrong. This post is the last thing that some out there would want to see so it is not surprising that there are some who would want to discredit it, interestingly Privat jet who seems to have some experience in this area of the law and how it should work has softened his line, I would guess because he now sees that theory is one thing that the law is being abused by some in practice.

I would like to say more but at this stage it would give one of these company's some idea of the next move of the creditors.

I would advise all who have been the victims of this sort of scam to wise up and act quickly.
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Old 17th Jan 2012, 07:54   #9 (permalink)
 
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Luddite,

I'm not disagreeing with you about anything, i have no agenda or axe to grind here. I was just browsing the forums and thought i'd add what i knew to the discussion, thats it. Best of luck with it all. Kind regards.
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Old 17th Jan 2012, 21:20   #10 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
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Another useful thing to be aware of

Is how easy it is to set up an alerting system to let you know of any documents that have been filed with Companies House by a company you may be interested in (e.g. one you either work for or have committed considerable personal investment with). It's a very useful way of discovering that a business has gone into administration (which can be a convenient way of avoiding paying smaller creditors). Go to Companies House and then choose Webcheck, search for the company you're interested in and then when it provides the top level page, choose 'Monitor this company'. You need to register to use the service but it's free. Comes in handy sometimes when you get an alert to say that the company's registered office has just changed.
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Old 17th Jan 2012, 22:55   #11 (permalink)
 
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Luddite,

There are some experienced business people of the PPRuNe Network, who know a great a deal about some of the things you "reveal".

For example

Quote:
It would not suprize me if some employers are planning to set up shop under a slightly different name having shed their debts.
Standard and routine UK business practice happening thousands of times a year and with companies including household names. In fact one well know football club does about 3 times a season! Some call it flipping, there are many othe names and variations.

In very general terms when a company goes belly up in the UK, its creditors are ****ed. As others have pointed out, there are processes to reclaim statutory redundancy pay, but it aint gonna be much so don't lose too much sleep if you can't get yer mitts on it.

Best of luck, whatever your beef is, but I think the posters above, like me, are just wise to the realities of business in the UK.
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Old 18th Jan 2012, 04:56   #12 (permalink)
 
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Are you thinking of a club on the south coast within a city with strong links to the Royal Navy?
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Old 18th Jan 2012, 07:24   #13 (permalink)
 
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I was an RAF pilot - from what I've heard the MoD has pretty well gone bust.
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Old 18th Jan 2012, 11:44   #14 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nervous SLF View Post
Are you thinking of a club on the south coast within a city with strong links to the Royal Navy?
Or one that filed administration papers on the last working day before the Christmas holidays? Hope all the staff and students had been told in advance.
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Old 19th Jan 2012, 06:05   #15 (permalink)


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I have no agenda towards any flying club in particular it is a difficult market and people are going to go bust.

The agenda I have is with the people who own a group of company's that bankrupt one company having transfered the assets to another company and continue to trade.

The really smart ones try to go for a voluntary striking off, this is how you would end a company if you wanted to shut it and had no debts. The problem is that if the company has been struck off in this way no one can recover any debts and the insolvency service won't pay employees and redundency pay.

The point of my post is to inform those who find themselfs in this position to object to any company going for a voluntary strike off when they owe money.

If they object (to companies house) to any voluntary strike off they then buy themselfs time to get a few people together and take action to at least force the company into insolvency and this way they can at the very minimum get a pay out form the insolvency service, it is not a fortune but if you have paid NI you are entitled to it.

The Old Fat One seems keen to kick anything I say into the long grass, all I am doing is giving to young and aspiring and probably not so worldly wise a few tools to make sure that they get what they are entitled to. This might be uncomfortable for some in business as it will get in the way of some moves they might want to make. Old Fat One what is your agenda?
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