Flying Instructors & ExaminersA place for instructors to communicate with one another because some of them get a bit tired of the attitude that instructing is the lowest form of aviation, as seems to prevail on some of the other forums!
I wonder if anyone knows or can point me towards the correct reference...
Can an FI (R) with Aeros restriction fly aerobatics when flying with a PPL holder or other licence holder? I ask the question because although an experienced aerobatic pilot (DA holder), I've never got round to removing the aeros restriction on my FI (Restricted) rating. I know I can't fly aeros with a student until I've done the course, but I've been asked to fly with a PPL chap in an aero aircraft to give him some exposure to the type...would be a shame to take the aircraft up and not do a bit of upside down flying...Btw, not doing differences training either.
Well you could legally do it with them as a passenger if you didn't have the FI(R), so presumably you still can, but the flight (or that bit of the flight) is not instruction so you are PiC, they can't log it, and you must pay your share of that portion of the flight?
As there is no legal "aerobatic rating" there is no legal reason why the other pilot can't be aircraft commander throughout the entire flight, you can sit beside them, give advice demonstrate etc without breaking any rules.
Couple of things to think about; are the aircraft owner and insurer happy and are you and the pilot in question competent to fly the planned maneuvers? Can you cope with any likely (and unlikely) screw ups?
Think carefully; often the rules are not well written and can be full of holes but their intention is clear and sensible. If you are an experienced aeros and DA pilot then get the restriction off your license and you can make money while flying upside down - much more fun!!
The TrainingCom was issued in response to allegations of the selling of aerobatic experience flights being thinly diguised as 'trial lessons'. Since aerobatic training does not feature in the PPL or any other JAA syllabus, there is no excuse for including them in a 'trial lesson', or any other instructional flight.
However, that was not the OP's question. He is talking about a (presumably) private flight in an aerobatic aircraft with another qualified pilot - no instruction involved. In fact, there is currently nothing to prevent aerobatic instruction being given on such a flight, irrespective of the wholly pointless restriction printed on the FI rating. Since instruction is not being given for a licence or rating, an FI rating is irrelevant. The CAA have never managed to get their heads around the concept that you cannot withold a privilege that never existed in the first place.
Of course, this will all change next April with the introduction of the EASA aerobatic rating and the requirement to hold an appropriate instructor certificate (no longer a rating) to give any flight instruction in an aircraft
It would depend on the circumstances, since if the aircraft (with instructor) were hired from a club by the PPL holder in question, then the flight would constitute aerial work, for which Dunbar is then using his FI rating. Hence the reference to the TRAININGCOM.
I've been looking through the EASA Aerobatic Rating over the last few days, and this will prove even more complicated....
It would depend on the circumstances, since if the aircraft (with instructor) were hired from a club by the PPL holder in question, then the flight would constitute aerial work, for which Dunbar is then using his FI rating.
OK...yes, it would be aerial work though I wouldn't be 'instructing' aeros, just finishing the sortie with a couple of manoeuvres (does a wingover count as aerobatic? I'm sure someone will tell me it does, 60 degrees of bank etc).
Maybe we'll finish with some recovery from unusual attitudes instead
Now, is it worth me forking out a grand to get get the aeros restriction lifted, ie grandfather rights when it all changes, or does my aeros experience at competition and displays fulfill that? I'm guessing not...
OK...yes, it would be aerial work though I wouldn't be 'instructing' aeros, just finishing the sortie with a couple of manoeuvres
From the Trainingcom for which I provided the link earlier:
AEROBATICS ON TRAINING FLIGHTS We would like to remind you that the inclusion of any aerobatic manoeuvres during training flights constitutes aerobatic instruction, whether these manoeuvres are part of the training syllabus and the intended lesson or not. An Instructor is exercising the privileges of his/her FI rating throughout a dual flight (including a trial lesson) and to carry out or demonstrate any aerobatic manoeuvre, therefore, requires that the Instructor's FI rating is not restricted for the purposes of giving aerobatic instruction.
So, you will need to remove the restriction...
Your DA [Display Authorisation] will get you a EASA AR [Aerobatic Rating], since you can demostrate that you have aerobatic experience.
In order to instruct aerobatics in the manner you describe, you must complete the FI course for removal of the 'No Aerobatics' restriction under the instruction of a FIC Instructor. Under EASA the requirements are similar in that in order to obtain an AI [Aerobatic Instructor] Rating you will have to demonstrate the ability to instruct this to a....FIC Instructor.
There will be a significant transition period for implementation of the Aerobatics Rating [2015ish]. Dunbar, I recommend that you do the job properly by completing the course, so that you can charge appropriately for your knowledge and experience.
Last edited by ifitaintboeing; 23rd Jun 2011 at 15:54.
Let's get this in perspective. The original question was "Can an FI (R) with a 'No Aerobatics' restriction fly (not teach) aerobatics when flying with a PPL holder or other licence holder?" The answer is yes, provided that no part of the flight includes instruction for a licence or rating. Subsequent comments regarding TrainingComs, aerial work and so on are entirely irrelevant to the original question.
To put it another way - If any part of the flight requires the exercise of the privileges of an FI rating and that rating includes a 'no aerobatics' restriction then aerobatics may not be flown or taught. If no part of the flight requires the exercise of the privileges of an FI rating then aerobatics may be flown and/or taught.
This is ok, even here in France where there is already an aerobatics "rating". I'm allowed to take people up in the club Cap10 and show them some aeros, they too can try their hand. However, they are not allowed to log the time towards an aero-rating.
In a country without an aero rating, I can't see how there could be a problem.
Does an FI(r) that has had the "no aerobatics" restriction removed, but has not yet achieved the 25 solo sign offs required to remove his general restriction, need supervision to give paid aerobatics instruction to qualified pilots?
Location: Quite near 'An aerodrome somewhere in England'
dobbin1, as I read the ANO it would seem that an FI(R) is restricted as follows:
The privileges will be restricted to carrying out under the supervision of the holder of a flight instructor rating (aeroplane) approved for this purpose—
(a) flight instruction for the issue of the Private Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) or those parts of integrated courses at Private Pilot Licence (Aeroplane) level and class and type ratings for single-engine aeroplanes, excluding approval of first solo flights by day or by night and first solo cross country flights by day or by night; and
(b) night flying instruction.
However, an FI(R) may have the 'no aerobatics' restriction removed.
But since aerobatics are not listed as any part of (a) or (b) above, how can you then teach aerobatics?
Another of those 'unintended consequences' of mixing old CAA regulations with JAR-FCL, I guess......
But as pointed out earlier in this thread, an instructor rating is only required to give instruction for a licence or rating, and as there is no such rating you can legally do it on the basis of your licence alone, if its a CPL you can charge.
Trainingcom 1/2005 states:
AEROBATICS ON TRAINING FLIGHTS We would like to remind you that the inclusion of any aerobatic manoeuvres during training flights constitutes aerobatic instruction, whether these manoeuvres are part of the training syllabus and the intended lesson or not. An Instructor is exercising the privileges of his/her FI rating throughout a dual flight (including a trial lesson) and to carry out or demonstrate any aerobatic manoeuvre, therefore requires that the Instructor’s FI rating is not restricted for the purpose of giving aerobatic instruction
Whilst this statement is not entirely true when instructing a qualified pilot, and it doesn't change the legality, but it does make sense.