Flying Instructors & ExaminersA place for instructors to communicate with one another because some of them get a bit tired of the attitude that instructing is the lowest form of aviation, as seems to prevail on some of the other forums!
My boss maintains that he has a special agreement with the CAA whereby our licence holding members can always log P1u/s whenever on club checkouts. My understanding was, that around 15 years ago, the CAA stipulated that the only time P1u/s could be logged was on a successful flight test with an examiner - and that all flights with instructors should be logged as dual Pu/t; with the instructor logging P1. I've tackled him about this 2 or 3 times (diplomatically of course) but only last week he said it was re-confirmed again last year as OK, in response to my query at that time. Short of phoning the CAA and possibly dropping him in the proverbial I am at a loss for a way forward. Unless I can find another CFI position somewhere locally I cannot afford to lose my position. Obviously I am logging those flights as P1 instructional flights. Any ideas chaps?
Think you're right about P1/US. The club member could log a checkout flight as P1 if you're happy to let him do that. But it would mean he would be responsible and you would effectively be an observer. However, your club insurance might require you to be the P1 for these checkout flights.
Maybe you could ask your boss exactly who at the CAA the agreement has been made with. Sounds a bit dubious.
Well, for a start your boss does not have a private arrangement with the CAA and nor does anyone else.
For me, a club check is simply that. The arrangement has no lawful authority. The flight is simply a contractual matter between the owner and the hirer. The pilot being checked therefore should log the flight as P1 unless the instructor has had to interfere.
Therefore, for me, the question is more to do with what the instructor logs. LASORS states: Section A, Appendix B, Page 40, Recording of Pilot Function: para 1c. The holder of an instructor rating may log as pilot-in-command all flight time during which he acts as an instructor in an aeroplane/helicopter or ..... etc.
The question is: Are you acting as an instructor during a club check? If the pilots licence and experience is valid including the 90 day rule then anyone could do the check for the owner. If the 90 day rule or some other element could not be complied with then only an instructor could accompany. You would therefore be, somewhat obviously, acting as an instructor in the circumstances.
The CAA without doubt encourage any arrangement whereby an instructor always undertakes routine checks. There are precendents where both pilots log PIC. In certain circumstances during CPL/IR training - the student logs SPIC and the instructor PIC. The Captain of multi-crew aircraft when resting continues to log PIC although the co-pilot will also log PIC simultaneously, when they are handling pilot, during the captains rest.
Unless you have a copy of it in writing from someone in authority at the CAA, the previous rules will have to be followed, i.e. pilot only logs PICUS following a successful flight test with an authorised examiner. Apart from anything else, you need to teach students that the rules are as per the ANO unless the CAA say otherwise in writing.
Location: Lurking within the psyche of Dave Sawdon
I'm amazed that this topic KEEPS coming up. The rules are clear and easy to find - P1/s for single crew aircraft is only applicable to a successful flight test with an examiner.
Homeguard Unusually, I don't agree with what you've said. On a check-out I have one simple test to determine who logs what: who would fill-out the accident report? This person signed for the aircraft, and is responsible for the safe conduct of the flight. They are therefore the Captain and log P1. In my experience, for a club check-out this is invariably the instructor.
If people don't like the rules then talk to the authorities to get them changed (please); but don't complain here, say what the rules should be, or ignore them. Once you ignore one rule it's easier to ignore the rest.
My boss maintains that he has a special agreement with the CAA whereby our licence holding members can always log P1u/s whenever on club checkouts.
Thers is no such thing as a special arrangement other than a written exemption to the ANO! Your logbook is determined by the ANO Article 35 which requires that you log
(c) the capacity in which the holder acted in flight;
How you determine that is up to the holder. The CAA only provide "guidance" on what they will accept for licence/rating issue or revalidation; it is simply, "guidance" aimed at preventing applications without sufficient hours, nothing more than that. The CAA have no interest in what you put in your log, only that you meet the minimum requirements for issue or revalidation (and don't exceed the maximums.) What you put in your "personal" logbook is ultimately up to the individual.
For club checkouts, there is no reason why they cannot log it P1 as long as you (FI) do not touch the controls.
I made the P1S mistake when I started instructing (check-outs). AS someone above stated, Its just for auth. examiner stuff.
LASORS can be a bit confusing sometimes. Whenever I had a question about licence stuff and got a headache trying to readtheabove document, I called the CAA. Generally really helpful and if theyculdnot give you an answer staright away, I got an e-mail.