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Old 7th Oct 2000, 14:57   #1 (permalink)
VIPER - The Red Bandit
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Question Stall turn in Cessna 172?

Greetings fellow instructors,

I recently converted onto the C172 and together with my patter instructor, did stall turns in the 172. I was very uneasy with the idea but after the first one the temptation to go faster and flicking it in more aggressively was hard to resist. I'd like to continue doing this but am unsure about the stress imposed on the aircraft. Due to the fact that I'm going over the top with full power, I'm a bit unsure of the limits imposed due to gyroscopic properties of the propellor and the slow speed that we're going into the turn. Any advise?
 
Old 7th Oct 2000, 20:01   #2 (permalink)
BlueLine
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Yes. Operate the aircraft within its certificated envelope.
 
Old 7th Oct 2000, 20:44   #3 (permalink)
VIPER - The Red Bandit
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Arrow

So what you're saying is that it might not be such a good idea? It's really an awesome feeling but I don't want to do it if it's unsafe. Any advice from other instructors?
 
Old 8th Oct 2000, 00:18   #4 (permalink)
fallen eagle
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Is this for real are you serious?if so dont come anywhere near any a/c that I am likely to fly.C172 non aerobatic stress imposed is cumulative so when the a/c falls apart due to someone misshandling it previously you might not be onboard .Perhaps its not your fault entirely though if you are in command it is. My advise for what its worth us stay away from that instructor and any a/c he uses. bye bye
 
Old 8th Oct 2000, 00:26   #5 (permalink)
fallen eagle
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Viper I just re-read your post it seems you might be an instructor. I hope you are not U.K. qualified.Perhaps you are with the DIVINE WIND section of the Nippon air force?
 
Old 8th Oct 2000, 01:49   #6 (permalink)
IanSeager
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I'm not an instructor so I probably shouldn't be writing this... but my advice would be...
1. Don't do it again
2. Change instructors
3. Ask an engineer to inspect the aircraft and explain to him what has been done to it. I think you owe that to anyone who might fly it in the future.
Ian
 
Old 8th Oct 2000, 11:34   #7 (permalink)
VIPER - The Red Bandit
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Red face

Howzit Guys -
I'm doing my instructors test on the 9th of October. The guy I fly with is SUPER safety oriented and has experimented with all these menoeuvers himself. I love doing it but if the aircraft is being stressed in the process, I WILL NOT do it again. I'm South-African and all these instructors at the flight school I did my training at, has a tendency to fly these aircraft aggresively. Their philosophy is that it injects confidence and for sure, my confidence has rocketed ever since I saw that recovery is very easily possible. We always went over-the-top in a zero-G envelope and pulled out of the succeeding dive way before Vno.

But yes, I hear wat you all are saying. Thanks.
 
Old 8th Oct 2000, 20:48   #8 (permalink)
Tallbloke
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What does the little pamphlet thingy say, you know, POH/FM?
 
Old 8th Oct 2000, 23:53   #9 (permalink)
chicken6
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mental note, don't fly any South African C172s.

my signature is a progression, your instructor is on step 2.

------------------
Confident, cocky, lazy, dead.
 
Old 9th Oct 2000, 01:53   #10 (permalink)
100LL
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Somebody wants there chunks feelin
 
Old 9th Oct 2000, 04:49   #11 (permalink)
Tinstaafl
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What you describe as a "stall turn" might not be what I understand as a stall turn". Would you mind elaborating on exactly what is occuring re pitch/roll/yaw angles, entry & exit airspeeds etc?

However, presuming we're talking about the same thing, and not a wingover...


Quote:
The guy I fly with is SUPER safety oriented...
Quote:
...has experimented with all these menoeuvers himself
Anyone else see this as a contradiction in terms?

How does the S.African regulatory authority define aerobatic manoeuvres ie pitch/roll/yaw amounts + 'g' limits etc? Is that the category that the C172 is certified within in S.A.? I'd be surprised if it is aero. approved. It's not anywhere else that I know of.

Get to a school that teaches you properly. Particularly as you're training to be an instuctor and are then supposed to act as a role model.

In case I ever happen to go for a fly in S.A., can you let me know the school that has been doing this? Just so I can make damned sure I avoid them & their aircraft.

--------
Instructors to avoid #1: "Watch now my demonstration of what not to do

[This message has been edited by Tinstaafl (edited 09 October 2000).]
 
Old 10th Oct 2000, 03:36   #12 (permalink)
Thrush
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AST in Perth used to have a colourful Instructor or two, before it's sad demise.

The story goes that one of the more, shall we say, excellent, but slightly unconventional, Instructors took off on the short westerly runway in a 172. This runway was famous for having nowhere to go, should the old donk stop, as the climb out was over a wood.

Anyway, the old donk stopped on him and he stall turned the 172 and landed back on the runway! Eyewitnesses reckon it was something to behold, but it's definately something not to practice!! (Below 3000'agl anyway!)
 
Old 11th Oct 2000, 13:48   #13 (permalink)
foxmoth
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Thumbs down

When I first turned up the school to learn to fly (many moons ago), all the instructors were away at the funeral of someone who had been aerobating a non aero Cessna! DON'T DO IT.
It might seem safe, but when it goes wrong, as can happen, is when you find you do need that extra strength in the aircraft after all.
As far as Stall turning to land back on goes, I don't see how you would have the speed to pull up for this on a normal departure. possibly a half spin and recovery,
but he would have to be VERY good or VERY lucky to get away with that!!!
 
Old 12th Oct 2000, 19:33   #14 (permalink)
arrow2
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Arrow

Just read the thread & words escape me - if it is a true stall turn and not just a lazy wing over then "terrifying and irresponsible" might just suit!

arrow2
 
Old 12th Oct 2000, 20:45   #15 (permalink)
Tricky Woo
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fish

Hands up all the aerobatic pilots out there who have NEVER fallen out of a stall-turn.

No one? Thought not.

Stall-turns in a C172? Silly, silly, silly...
 
Old 12th Oct 2000, 21:55   #16 (permalink)
hugh flung_dung
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Viper - this has got to be either a wind-up or a misunderstanding.
In case it's a misunderstanding I'll describe a basic stall turn (a hammerhead in US parlance) and a wingover, you can say which your "instructor" did.
In a stall turn the aircraft is accelerated level to some reasonable speed and pulled to a true vertical attitude (upwards). It's kept vertical as the speed decays until the time is right to apply rudder to make it yaw through 180 degrees (inside its wingspan) and so retrace its path back towards terra firma, at a reasonable speed it is pulled into level flight. The actual process is more complex than this, there are several pitfalls if you don't get it right and the g probably ranges between 0 and +4.
A wingover can be flown in a number of ways but basically the aircraft is pitched to +30-60 degrees, partly unloaded and rolled smoothly to 60-90 degrees as the pitch drops to zero (climbing turn) followed by undoing what you've just done on the way back down again. These are legitimate in a C172 providing they're flown smoothly and inside the permitted g range.
Which was it? If it was the first then I suggest you fly with someone else.
 
Old 13th Oct 2000, 12:09   #17 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
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Will some one please tell me that this thred is a joke.
A and C is offline  
Old 13th Oct 2000, 20:50   #18 (permalink)
Crazy Mary
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I was recently exposed to a similair situation... a friend who admitted (boasted) to me that he was using our clubs 172's to (attempt to) perform aero's, sometimes fully loaded (ie 4 POB).

VIPER, this is extremely serious. If you haven't gotten the idea yet, from the other posts in this thread... THIS IS EXTREMELY SERIOUS. Both you and this instructor of yours are heading down a road labelled either "Death" or "Manslaughter".

I suggest, if you can not bring yourself to report this to the relevant authorities, that you do what I did. Write an anonymous letter to the aircraft owners. Don't name names, but make the situation clear. Hopefully they are smart enough to treat these concerns seriously, and to do something about it. A simple education programme (notices posted in briefing rooms, warnings in the club magazine etc.) certainly stopped by friend from doing these stupid things.

VIPER, you must excercise responsibility in this situation. Don't do it, and take action to help insure that no-one else does it either.

Stall turns in a 172... sheesh!
 
Old 14th Oct 2000, 01:52   #19 (permalink)
Salvador
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Hmm..Aeros in a 172! Well in theory if you remain within the flight envelope of the aircraft you should be OK. Do not exceed G Limits VNE and observe restrictions at VMA.
However if you are attempting this sort of thing with no experience and are not in the care of a red hot test pilot/ aerobatic ace etc, then chances are that something vital will fall off. After all Mr Cessna produced a special version of the 152 (the 152 Aerobat) for this particular requirement so I would make a fair guess that the 172 is not cleared for aeros for a very good reason.
If an instructor is showing you - an inexperienced pilot how to have a go - he needs shooting and the aircraft needs scrapping. There are some fine aerobatic pilots in South Africa, I suggest you contact them via your national aerobatic association if you want to learn properly. As for the stall turn....well if you leave it too late and the conditions are perfect, then an inadvertent tail slide will be performed. In this situation, if you have not locked the rudders and control column very firmly, the controls will be forced rapidly to full defletion and break off. Go and feel how flimsy the rudder is on the 172 that'll give you something to think about. If you wish to live, I think you should desist. If you wish to learn about aeros, find a reputable instructor. In fairness to other users of the machine in question, you should pass your experiences on to the owner/operator (anonymously if need be)in order that the machine can be properly inspected.
 
Old 19th Oct 2000, 16:42   #20 (permalink)
damBuster descendant
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Deathly silence falls on the post – could the originator have answered the questions ? Is there a smouldering mass of fatigued C172 in the countryside of South Africa ?

If you want to do aerobatics, fly a real aerobatic aircraft
If you want to have a cheep thrill, go ride a roller coaster
 
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