Flight test training & employment
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Flight test training & employment
Hello,
I am not very familiar with the market situation and employment possibilities for Test Pilots of any kind (guess it is quite rare to find any position, also the requirements seem to be very high) so sorry for what perhaps sounds like a crazy idea.
Let's just imagine that we have an experienced pilot with many hours and a degree in engineering field related to aeronautics. Instead of doing what is pretty popular nowadays - paying for a type and line training - he or she is willing to invest this money into something different - one of the NTPS courses.
Obviously, just like it is with TRs, it must be crazy to do that without a guaranteed job position at the end of it. Do you think it is possible to find an aircraft manufacturer and make such an offer - I am paying for my training (perhaps prepared for a particular type of aircraft only) but you ensure me a job?
I am not very familiar with the market situation and employment possibilities for Test Pilots of any kind (guess it is quite rare to find any position, also the requirements seem to be very high) so sorry for what perhaps sounds like a crazy idea.
Let's just imagine that we have an experienced pilot with many hours and a degree in engineering field related to aeronautics. Instead of doing what is pretty popular nowadays - paying for a type and line training - he or she is willing to invest this money into something different - one of the NTPS courses.
Obviously, just like it is with TRs, it must be crazy to do that without a guaranteed job position at the end of it. Do you think it is possible to find an aircraft manufacturer and make such an offer - I am paying for my training (perhaps prepared for a particular type of aircraft only) but you ensure me a job?
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Welcome ClearProp,
Many of the civil aircraft Test Pilots I know were drawn into the process because they already worked for the company in a different capacity. Their piloting skills were appreciated by the Flight Test department, and they moved up. I commonly get the reaction that they did not ever expect to become a Test Pilot, it just sort of happened, because they were int he right place, at the right time, with the right experience.
There would be varied advice and experience from others, but from me, I suggest that you get the non TP job with the company first, and form a good working relationship with them - the trust with the work and the aircraft. From that, your willingness to self fund more training should fit right in nicely, and you might advance.
A can say that the Test Pilots I know are all old guys, who are mellow and content to wait for the next opportunity to fly, rather than to "push the envelope" to fly this time. Advancing years, coupled with enough flying experience to have overcome the bling of it seem to be assets....
Many of the civil aircraft Test Pilots I know were drawn into the process because they already worked for the company in a different capacity. Their piloting skills were appreciated by the Flight Test department, and they moved up. I commonly get the reaction that they did not ever expect to become a Test Pilot, it just sort of happened, because they were int he right place, at the right time, with the right experience.
There would be varied advice and experience from others, but from me, I suggest that you get the non TP job with the company first, and form a good working relationship with them - the trust with the work and the aircraft. From that, your willingness to self fund more training should fit right in nicely, and you might advance.
A can say that the Test Pilots I know are all old guys, who are mellow and content to wait for the next opportunity to fly, rather than to "push the envelope" to fly this time. Advancing years, coupled with enough flying experience to have overcome the bling of it seem to be assets....
People have done it, but not with great success.
I agree with DAR to some extent - although some people have become TPs through career aspiration. I think that with the background you've described, looking for an FTE job in one of the middle sized companies may be the best bet.
G
I agree with DAR to some extent - although some people have become TPs through career aspiration. I think that with the background you've described, looking for an FTE job in one of the middle sized companies may be the best bet.
G
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DAR, Genghis - thank you for your replies.
What do you think, which companies in Europe will be the best to start? After finishing my BSc I am planning to look for an entry level position. Of course it would be great to stay with one firm, build relationship as you said and wait for occasion to change seats. I was thinking about GROB and PILATUS. Any other ideas?
What do you think, which companies in Europe will be the best to start? After finishing my BSc I am planning to look for an entry level position. Of course it would be great to stay with one firm, build relationship as you said and wait for occasion to change seats. I was thinking about GROB and PILATUS. Any other ideas?
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Hi ClearProp, sorry I can't help you with wisdom about the European opportunities, I'm not "connected" there. All of my test flying has been the aftermarket modification world, survey installations, engine changes, and alternate landing gear. For my own experience, though being a "Test Pilot" always held that special appeal to me, I was asked to do it, I did not present myself as a candidate for consideration. That's not to say that you should not present yourself, but shear will alone may not be enough, the "employers" will be looking for lots of relevant flying experience.
Test Pilot training is of course important, but in my opinion, it's easier to train an experienced pilot to test, evaluate, and record data, than it is to bring a very well educated evaluator up to the piloting skills necessary to fly a new aircraft. Insurers and the regulator have thoughts about this too.
So while you're working the entry level job at the ideal company, and getting known, fly anything and everything you can, and allow yourself to become known as an experienced, competent and cautious pilot by the flight test department.
Test Pilot training is of course important, but in my opinion, it's easier to train an experienced pilot to test, evaluate, and record data, than it is to bring a very well educated evaluator up to the piloting skills necessary to fly a new aircraft. Insurers and the regulator have thoughts about this too.
So while you're working the entry level job at the ideal company, and getting known, fly anything and everything you can, and allow yourself to become known as an experienced, competent and cautious pilot by the flight test department.
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Hi DAR an thank you for your answer.
After some initial research among current openings I have a feeling that the market for Test Pilots looks much better on the other side of the Atlantic. There just seem to be way more companies that are in need of this kind of service. Unfortunately, as I see most of them, at least the ones in US require American citizenship (probably due to their government connections). Is it the same in Canada?
After some initial research among current openings I have a feeling that the market for Test Pilots looks much better on the other side of the Atlantic. There just seem to be way more companies that are in need of this kind of service. Unfortunately, as I see most of them, at least the ones in US require American citizenship (probably due to their government connections). Is it the same in Canada?
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Clearprop,
Whatever nationality you are (and it's not so important as you might think as long as you can meet the basic higher ed requirements for immigration), you will not get into any Flight Test department as a pilot unless you have already completed a FTP course at a recognised National (read military) school. Even then it probably helps if you've been on squadron with pilots already flying with the company you're joining - it's that small a world.
From your history, I would have to second the method of joining the Design or Flight Test department of a company that has an active certification program. Such is the demand for piloting expertise on test rigs that whatever Engineering degree you have, you'll probably get "flight" time but not in an aircraft. FYI your resume is very similar to that of the majority of Flight Test Engineers (FTEs) I've known but even then the majority of those gentlemen did not get onboard a test aircraft as soon as they joined.
Whatever nationality you are (and it's not so important as you might think as long as you can meet the basic higher ed requirements for immigration), you will not get into any Flight Test department as a pilot unless you have already completed a FTP course at a recognised National (read military) school. Even then it probably helps if you've been on squadron with pilots already flying with the company you're joining - it's that small a world.
From your history, I would have to second the method of joining the Design or Flight Test department of a company that has an active certification program. Such is the demand for piloting expertise on test rigs that whatever Engineering degree you have, you'll probably get "flight" time but not in an aircraft. FYI your resume is very similar to that of the majority of Flight Test Engineers (FTEs) I've known but even then the majority of those gentlemen did not get onboard a test aircraft as soon as they joined.
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ICT SLB, thank you for your reply.
What about completing a course at recognised civilian test pilot school - such as NTPS, ETPS etc.? Of course this would be great to join the military one but I assume it is not possible for me since I am:
a) foreigner
b) non military pilot
I was thinking about covering by myself a course at NTPS - one of the short ones - like 6 week Flight Test Certification (75k $) or Pre-TPS (27k $). I know that it is not the same as a full, 1 year program but that is all I can pay for, at least within a few upcoming years. By doing this I would like to impress a future employer, show that I am a right candidate for TP position and perhaps count for further, this time sponsored training.
I am quite certain that in some parts of Europe this kind of course would make me quite exotic and attractive (I know about people working here without not only any TP course but also any engineering degree). On the other hand, there are not so many opportunities as in the US and probably Canada (where I guess short NTPS courses in pilots resumes are not so unusual).
What do you think about this idea?
What about completing a course at recognised civilian test pilot school - such as NTPS, ETPS etc.? Of course this would be great to join the military one but I assume it is not possible for me since I am:
a) foreigner
b) non military pilot
I was thinking about covering by myself a course at NTPS - one of the short ones - like 6 week Flight Test Certification (75k $) or Pre-TPS (27k $). I know that it is not the same as a full, 1 year program but that is all I can pay for, at least within a few upcoming years. By doing this I would like to impress a future employer, show that I am a right candidate for TP position and perhaps count for further, this time sponsored training.
I am quite certain that in some parts of Europe this kind of course would make me quite exotic and attractive (I know about people working here without not only any TP course but also any engineering degree). On the other hand, there are not so many opportunities as in the US and probably Canada (where I guess short NTPS courses in pilots resumes are not so unusual).
What do you think about this idea?
Last edited by clearprop.; 19th Aug 2015 at 17:44.
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Clearprop,
I am NOT a pilot but I've been active in Flight Test in North America for over 25 years (until my recent retirement). As I said, it's a very small world and even ex-mil pilots won't have an easy or automatic entry into a Test Pilot slot. There was a previous thread on just this subject (unfortunately recently deleted) and my impression was that the TPS short courses were probably not worth their cost unless they were backed up by actual practice (a vicious circle if you're not already in Flight Test). I would suggest that Genghis could provide much better insight than me on UK/Europe courses as could our Moderator, Pilot DAR, for North America.
My advice remains to join the company you're interested in first wherever it may be.
I am NOT a pilot but I've been active in Flight Test in North America for over 25 years (until my recent retirement). As I said, it's a very small world and even ex-mil pilots won't have an easy or automatic entry into a Test Pilot slot. There was a previous thread on just this subject (unfortunately recently deleted) and my impression was that the TPS short courses were probably not worth their cost unless they were backed up by actual practice (a vicious circle if you're not already in Flight Test). I would suggest that Genghis could provide much better insight than me on UK/Europe courses as could our Moderator, Pilot DAR, for North America.
My advice remains to join the company you're interested in first wherever it may be.
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Thanks ICT,
Genghis, DAR can I ask for your point of view about investing money into one of the short courses provided by civilian TP schools (most likely NTPS)? If this makes any sense to do it (in the scenario described above), which one would you choose?
Genghis, DAR can I ask for your point of view about investing money into one of the short courses provided by civilian TP schools (most likely NTPS)? If this makes any sense to do it (in the scenario described above), which one would you choose?
Firstly - can I suggest to DAR, as he's the mod these days, this might be worth splitting off from the FAQ sticky into a separate thread?
Right - short courses. There are several out there - I have taught on a few myself. The main ones in the commercial market are the UK based UWE CPDA introduction to flight test done at Flightsafety at Farnborough, and the various NTPS short courses. There are a few specialists who will also do a 1:1 specialist course, or organisations doing training in-house.
I've taught on the UWE course plus some besboke training, and sent people to NTPS. CPDA is really aimed at engineers who will engage with flight test, rather than future FT professionals.
NTPS in my opinion is the world leader in these sort of short courses, and whenever I've had anything to do with them they've always impressed me. The calibre of instructor is exceptional, and they're really good at tailoring courses to the students' needs. The military shools are all about meeting government / military needs, and tend to be both more expensive and less flexible - from my professional viewpoint nowadays anyhow.
However - in my opinion, get some engagement with flight testing lined up first, so that you know what you are looking to get trained for. When that is lined up, if resources permit, try and get on one or more NTPS short courses - the training will be superb, but then you'll be consolidating it quickly with actual professional practice. A year later, with no practice, the value of that course becomes far more debateable.
G
Right - short courses. There are several out there - I have taught on a few myself. The main ones in the commercial market are the UK based UWE CPDA introduction to flight test done at Flightsafety at Farnborough, and the various NTPS short courses. There are a few specialists who will also do a 1:1 specialist course, or organisations doing training in-house.
I've taught on the UWE course plus some besboke training, and sent people to NTPS. CPDA is really aimed at engineers who will engage with flight test, rather than future FT professionals.
NTPS in my opinion is the world leader in these sort of short courses, and whenever I've had anything to do with them they've always impressed me. The calibre of instructor is exceptional, and they're really good at tailoring courses to the students' needs. The military shools are all about meeting government / military needs, and tend to be both more expensive and less flexible - from my professional viewpoint nowadays anyhow.
However - in my opinion, get some engagement with flight testing lined up first, so that you know what you are looking to get trained for. When that is lined up, if resources permit, try and get on one or more NTPS short courses - the training will be superb, but then you'll be consolidating it quickly with actual professional practice. A year later, with no practice, the value of that course becomes far more debateable.
G
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As per Genghis' suggestion, a new thread for flight test training and employment...
Sorry, I've been busy helping with the Shoreham crash thread...
Clear Prop,
I'm not the best person to ask, other than to say that I don't think we're all that busy in Canada, other than Bell and Bombardier. There are a few mod centers, but the flight test work for them is not likely full time.I have been told by those in the know that the type of flight testing work I do (GA) is unique in Canada, so there are not many more opportunities there!
Find work which will expose you to the flight test environment, and get you known and appreciated by those who run these operations.
Sorry, I've been busy helping with the Shoreham crash thread...
Is it the same in Canada?
I'm not the best person to ask, other than to say that I don't think we're all that busy in Canada, other than Bell and Bombardier. There are a few mod centers, but the flight test work for them is not likely full time.I have been told by those in the know that the type of flight testing work I do (GA) is unique in Canada, so there are not many more opportunities there!
Find work which will expose you to the flight test environment, and get you known and appreciated by those who run these operations.
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Clearprop
Whilst most of what is above is exactly spot on, It is possible to get there through dogged determination and a modicum of right place right time serendipity.
I now work as a full time Developmental TP in General Aviation, for a manufacturer, and it's only taken about 25 years to get there.
I started as a display and demo pilot doing contract ad hoc, then full time as production TP. A new company product led to an offer of developmental/ experimental TP work under tutelage of qualified FTE. Short course at NTPS ( great people as referenced above) and refereshers at regular intervals.
Almost continuous work on upgrades and newer models FAR 23 at latest amendments,and now in middle of FAR 23.221 campaign for 10 seat turbo prop.
Every day is a new day of wonder. As an Agricultural pilot 30 years ago, having missed Air Force selection due to wearing eyeglasses, I never expected to be strapping into another new type and working through a full part 23 certification program at this time in my life, but wow it has been worth the effort and unfortunate marital ' restructuring' that was part of the deal.
It's not AB or Boeing by a long chalk, but it's amazing and rewarding work every day.
I travel the worl extensively and have flown in about 30 countries thus far as part of the job. I have about 1500 FT hours and am on an ongoing learning program.
Someeople tell me how lucky I am, but 30 years of hard work has helped to make me lucky indeed.
Cheers and all the best in your quest.
HD
Whilst most of what is above is exactly spot on, It is possible to get there through dogged determination and a modicum of right place right time serendipity.
I now work as a full time Developmental TP in General Aviation, for a manufacturer, and it's only taken about 25 years to get there.
I started as a display and demo pilot doing contract ad hoc, then full time as production TP. A new company product led to an offer of developmental/ experimental TP work under tutelage of qualified FTE. Short course at NTPS ( great people as referenced above) and refereshers at regular intervals.
Almost continuous work on upgrades and newer models FAR 23 at latest amendments,and now in middle of FAR 23.221 campaign for 10 seat turbo prop.
Every day is a new day of wonder. As an Agricultural pilot 30 years ago, having missed Air Force selection due to wearing eyeglasses, I never expected to be strapping into another new type and working through a full part 23 certification program at this time in my life, but wow it has been worth the effort and unfortunate marital ' restructuring' that was part of the deal.
It's not AB or Boeing by a long chalk, but it's amazing and rewarding work every day.
I travel the worl extensively and have flown in about 30 countries thus far as part of the job. I have about 1500 FT hours and am on an ongoing learning program.
Someeople tell me how lucky I am, but 30 years of hard work has helped to make me lucky indeed.
Cheers and all the best in your quest.
HD
CP,as there is no indication on your `profile` with regard to experience,may I suggest that you should try to cover a broad variety of aircraft/rotorcraft/gliders/microlights,even if only with friends/instructors,so that you can have a better understanding of aircraft behaviour/control/performance,ergonomics.There are then lots of questions you ask; how,why,what,easy ,hard,difficult,nice,good, bad,etc,etc.....then ask the questions again....rather like women....
Educated Hillbilly
All the recent adverts (last 18 months) for Flight Test Engineer jobs in the UK have asked for a graduate of one of the recognised Flight Test Schools (ETPS, NTPS, etc). Combined Engineering and Flying experience has got me to the interview stage on a couple of occasions. It seems these days it is near impossible to get FTE without being a "full time course graduate". Am I correct in thinking EASA has dropped the FTE licensing requirements and FTE can be still be done on the basis of company approvals?
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It's probably easier to try and join a company which conducts flight testing in a non-FT role first, then migrate across in-house. A job with QinetiQ is currently, as I'm sure you know, the only way to get yourself to ETPS (unless you join the military) - and with it the elusive FTE title. In my opinion the easiest way is to join QQ/BAE/Leonardo on a graduate scheme and work your way up from there. Obviously that may not be appropriate depending on your circumstances...
I agree with sooc.
The majority of FTEs are not long course graduates - but few companies will employ anybody directly into an FTE position unless either they are, or have an equivalent level of demonstrable experience.
The game is to get in sideways, with an employer who already holds you in adequate regard.
G
The majority of FTEs are not long course graduates - but few companies will employ anybody directly into an FTE position unless either they are, or have an equivalent level of demonstrable experience.
The game is to get in sideways, with an employer who already holds you in adequate regard.
G
