Becoming a Test Pilot
Educated Hillbilly
I believe she was profiled in the Flight International career section back pages once.
I believe if I remember correctly (I may stand to be corrected) she had been through the BA cadet scheme when it was a fully funded scheme.
Therefore I would assume one of the reasons she was able to self fund ETPS or NTPS was she didn't have to fund or have debts from the initial training for the "frozen" ATPL.
Realistically tuition fees on an engineering degree, followed by a "frozen" ATPL, gaining the relevant flying experience and then self funding a test pilots course represents a lottery worth of funding.
I believe if I remember correctly (I may stand to be corrected) she had been through the BA cadet scheme when it was a fully funded scheme.
Therefore I would assume one of the reasons she was able to self fund ETPS or NTPS was she didn't have to fund or have debts from the initial training for the "frozen" ATPL.
Realistically tuition fees on an engineering degree, followed by a "frozen" ATPL, gaining the relevant flying experience and then self funding a test pilots course represents a lottery worth of funding.
Last edited by portsharbourflyer; 22nd Apr 2015 at 12:12.
I am a test pilot, or even Test Pilot, which I commonly abbreviate in written and spoken English to "TP".
There is an entitlement that graduates of ETPS can use "tp" as a postnominal. I am not a graduate of ETPS, therefore I am not Genghis Engineer tp. I am however Genghis Engineer MSETP, as I met the stringent membership requirements of that august body.
Not sure how we got to grammar and postnominals. Anyhow the lady you're discussing says in this article that she studied at ETPS, although doesn't say which course.
Female pilots: Meet the young woman who tests the world's biggest planes for a living - Telegraph
G
There is an entitlement that graduates of ETPS can use "tp" as a postnominal. I am not a graduate of ETPS, therefore I am not Genghis Engineer tp. I am however Genghis Engineer MSETP, as I met the stringent membership requirements of that august body.
Not sure how we got to grammar and postnominals. Anyhow the lady you're discussing says in this article that she studied at ETPS, although doesn't say which course.
Female pilots: Meet the young woman who tests the world's biggest planes for a living - Telegraph
G
Last edited by Genghis the Engineer; 13th Apr 2015 at 22:03.
Which is not quite the same as an Experimental Test Pilot, of-course : a different role demanding in different ways.
I would guess, but don't know, that with Airbus behind her she was probably on a "special" course put together to meet specific company requirements. ETPS have done that for various aviation companies over the years.
G
I would guess, but don't know, that with Airbus behind her she was probably on a "special" course put together to meet specific company requirements. ETPS have done that for various aviation companies over the years.
G
Educated Hillbilly
Genghis,
I believe she went to ETPS before she was involved with Airbus, seems she has done two years at Cobham Aviation Services before working for Airbus.
I believe she went to ETPS before she was involved with Airbus, seems she has done two years at Cobham Aviation Services before working for Airbus.
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Not trying to hijack this forum. But I am in the United states, hold a commercial pilots license with 600 hours, A&P mechanic, graduating with a bachelors in mechanical engineering next may, and I have similar aspirations to become a test pilot but here in the US. Most flight test engineer jobs I have seen require flight test experience and I didn't know if there was a way to gain the flight test experience so I may go through the route of FTE and eventually Test Pilot. Would a masters in flight test engineering be the best option? or just various commercial jobs: CFI, banner tow, jump pilot,... etc. Thanks for any help
Educated Hillbilly
mgrosso,
Check out the courses at NTPS, they offer a past graduate course in FTE, National Test Pilot School - The World's Test Pilot School
Had a lot of time on standby lately so chance to research on google, turns out she self funded the 13 week flight test diploma course at ETPS. Apparently the first person to self sponsor a course at ETPS.
The Violinist & Pilot | Swiss in Wales
Would be interesting to know what that costs?
Check out the courses at NTPS, they offer a past graduate course in FTE, National Test Pilot School - The World's Test Pilot School
Had a lot of time on standby lately so chance to research on google, turns out she self funded the 13 week flight test diploma course at ETPS. Apparently the first person to self sponsor a course at ETPS.
The Violinist & Pilot | Swiss in Wales
Would be interesting to know what that costs?
Last edited by portsharbourflyer; 22nd Apr 2015 at 12:13.
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Mgrosso,
May I suggest rereading my post about modern flight test being a team sport? With the qualifications you state, I would suggest applying to any of the airframe companies for an engineering position within their Flight Test department. Once there, you are likely to carry out flight tests as an engineer and, if you do not find that sufficiently rewarding, may be able to advance (?) to a full time FTE position. This is how the bulk of non-military path FTEs get into the business.
May I suggest rereading my post about modern flight test being a team sport? With the qualifications you state, I would suggest applying to any of the airframe companies for an engineering position within their Flight Test department. Once there, you are likely to carry out flight tests as an engineer and, if you do not find that sufficiently rewarding, may be able to advance (?) to a full time FTE position. This is how the bulk of non-military path FTEs get into the business.
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FWIW, My experience, and that of many test pilots I know, has been that they started in a non flying role in the company, and in the mean time, building piloting skills independantly. Often the beginning point was one of maintenance or production on the company's aircraft.
For my experience, a few thousand hours of GA flying in many types, coupled with maintenance check flying, and sale demonstration flying was the starting point. A non flying Transport Canada delegation for aircraft certification (issuing STC's) gave me the value to clients for STC test flight work.
But, for me, there's not enough work to make a living at it alone, much less pay the cost of a comprehensive flight test course. My training has been short courses and peer mentoring only, specific to what I flight test.
For my experience, a few thousand hours of GA flying in many types, coupled with maintenance check flying, and sale demonstration flying was the starting point. A non flying Transport Canada delegation for aircraft certification (issuing STC's) gave me the value to clients for STC test flight work.
But, for me, there's not enough work to make a living at it alone, much less pay the cost of a comprehensive flight test course. My training has been short courses and peer mentoring only, specific to what I flight test.
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A lot has been said above, but my view, for what it is worth:
The reality is, that you have no hope of getting a job as a test pilot inthe UK in the current climate, unless you are a graduate from a recognised testpilot school, which means you need to be military.
The number of test pilot jobs in industry is fast shrinking, and the numberof mil TP grads will easily meet the demand of the current UK T&E requirements for a longtime, so industry does not need to invest in any future capability, since thegovernment does it on their behalf.
Flight test in Europe now requires specific licensing, which now mandatesappropriate training, so on the job routes in are no longer realistic (even ifindustry did want to invest in training). I believe Isabelle self-sponsored throughETPS, but did the shorter course as a Production Test Pilot, not Experimental.An enormous achievement, but not what you have asked about. Since ONE personhas achieved this in the history of ETPS, it should give you an idea of the likelihoodof you achieving it. Still worth trying if you want it enough, but no guaranteethat Airbus, or anyone else will give you a job at the end of it.
I suggest the best route for you in the UK would be to join QinetiQ as aTrials Officer -> Get selected for ETPS FTE course (and make sure yougraduate) -> Fly and do some hours building as a normal pilot -> Move tothe USA/Canada and work as an FTE and the hope to get moved across to testpiloting when you have built enough hours.
Alternatively, get a job at somewhere like BAE Systems or Marshall Aerospaceand try to get some on the job training that will get you into FTE’ing (thenfollow the same route as above). It will take you much longer, but sinceselection on to ETPS as an FTE is not certain, it may be academic.
The future is unmanned anyway, so there might not be many test pilots left in 10 years anyway!
Good luck
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So she is not an Experimental Test Pilot (51 weeks) - she is a Production Pilot (13 weeks)
In other works, she cannot fly prototypes or new systems development...
And she paid for it ...
But ETPS has always been greedy for money since that they have been privatised - they even conduct two-days courses for airline pilots inside some major airlines... and guess how they call themselves after !
In other works, she cannot fly prototypes or new systems development...
And she paid for it ...
But ETPS has always been greedy for money since that they have been privatised - they even conduct two-days courses for airline pilots inside some major airlines... and guess how they call themselves after !
Educated Hillbilly
Although both achievements are very credible getting on the BAe cadet scheme and passing the ETPS short course, an equivalent cadet from the FPP route these day with an 84000 loan to their name would probably not be able to pursue the same route so easily or quickly.
I wouldn't wish to denegrate her achievements or dedication.
I'd guess that with the dedication she's shown so far, she'll be doing experimental testing in a few years on the big stuff she flies, and will have therefore become an Experimental Test Pilot. Best of luck to her in getting to that point.
Eric Brown didn't graduate from the ETPS long course either, and probably no other current living TP, wherever they trained, will come close to his standing in the profession. What matters ultimately is the skillset, and demonstration of that - not which school you went to and how long you were there.
G
I'd guess that with the dedication she's shown so far, she'll be doing experimental testing in a few years on the big stuff she flies, and will have therefore become an Experimental Test Pilot. Best of luck to her in getting to that point.
Eric Brown didn't graduate from the ETPS long course either, and probably no other current living TP, wherever they trained, will come close to his standing in the profession. What matters ultimately is the skillset, and demonstration of that - not which school you went to and how long you were there.
G
[QUOTE=Genghis the Engineer;8946414
Eric Brown didn't graduate from the ETPS long course either, and probably no other current living TP, wherever they trained, will come close to his standing in the profession. What matters ultimately is the skillset, and demonstration of that - not which school you went to and how long you were there.
G[/QUOTE]
BPF (Not a test pilot, but a pilot who has done some formal flight testing)
Eric Brown didn't graduate from the ETPS long course either, and probably no other current living TP, wherever they trained, will come close to his standing in the profession. What matters ultimately is the skillset, and demonstration of that - not which school you went to and how long you were there.
G[/QUOTE]
BPF (Not a test pilot, but a pilot who has done some formal flight testing)
Educated Hillbilly
Very true Genghis but Eric Brown was also a product of his era.
I think you have to ask had an identical individual of equal ability been born between 1975 and 1985 how would their career progressed. Most likely they would have made it as RAF Fast Jet pilot, most likely they would have got selected for ETPS, but the variety and types available to work on would be extremely limited in comparison to the opportunities he had presented.
The chances are a "modern Eric Brown" would have been sent to the long course at ETPS.
I think you have to ask had an identical individual of equal ability been born between 1975 and 1985 how would their career progressed. Most likely they would have made it as RAF Fast Jet pilot, most likely they would have got selected for ETPS, but the variety and types available to work on would be extremely limited in comparison to the opportunities he had presented.
The chances are a "modern Eric Brown" would have been sent to the long course at ETPS.
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Izzy does indeed fly prototypes on development work, although not as captain on envelope expansion tests. The ETPS course she completed was the then Diploma Course, which was progressively developed over the years until being dropped as the EASA FTL appeared. The syllabus included performance and flying qualities, including variable stability training, and was therefore wider than the more recent EASA production tp syllabus. Several past graduates of the Diploma Course were immediately used as experimental test pilots and FTEs by their companies after graduation.
I'm not sure what Reinhardt is getting at with his comment about paying for training. All courses at ETPS (and the other schools) are paid for by someone, be they private individuals, companies, or other organisations. If he's implying that Izzy bought her graduation, then the same must apply to all pilots who have paid for training of any sort, be it for a PPL, and ATPL, or a type rating. That doesn't mean that the qualification is guaranteed. ETPS has a proud reputation to maintain and graduating sub-standard students would be a sure way to lose it.
The test flying training world has changed a lot in recent years, and there are (and actually always have been) many different ways to achieve the end goal of a career as an experimental test pilot or FTE. Some (like me) are fortunate enough to have training offered to them for the taking via the military, others have to build up to the qualification via other routes. Either way, a huge investment of personal effort is required.
In fact, even major companies such as Airbus do internal development of pilots and FTEs, as well as hiring pre-qualified people. The former gives long-term in-depth knowledge of the company's products, whilst the latter brings fresh ideas. Both aspects are valuable.
If you want to make a career in flight test, you can. But you may need to be brave in your choices... Be bold!
I'm not sure what Reinhardt is getting at with his comment about paying for training. All courses at ETPS (and the other schools) are paid for by someone, be they private individuals, companies, or other organisations. If he's implying that Izzy bought her graduation, then the same must apply to all pilots who have paid for training of any sort, be it for a PPL, and ATPL, or a type rating. That doesn't mean that the qualification is guaranteed. ETPS has a proud reputation to maintain and graduating sub-standard students would be a sure way to lose it.
The test flying training world has changed a lot in recent years, and there are (and actually always have been) many different ways to achieve the end goal of a career as an experimental test pilot or FTE. Some (like me) are fortunate enough to have training offered to them for the taking via the military, others have to build up to the qualification via other routes. Either way, a huge investment of personal effort is required.
In fact, even major companies such as Airbus do internal development of pilots and FTEs, as well as hiring pre-qualified people. The former gives long-term in-depth knowledge of the company's products, whilst the latter brings fresh ideas. Both aspects are valuable.
If you want to make a career in flight test, you can. But you may need to be brave in your choices... Be bold!
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Tester ...
I found this post from you on pprune, dated 22 Dec 2013 :
" My partner was a TRI/TRE on the 757/767 for a major flag carrier at the age of 23, and she is now a test pilot for Airbus. "
That's a fascinating piece of information, putting into perspective some of your comments from your post of today. I'm at pain trying to assess all the implications of it. Another post, also from Dec 2013 :
“After nearly 30 years of military and civilian flying… “
Waoww…. does everybody think the same as I do ? Sorry, you wrote all that, didn't you ? As for myself, I'm maintaining all my previous posts, which are based on facts, numbers and not ideas.
Expecting more from you in the same vein in the coming days !
I found this post from you on pprune, dated 22 Dec 2013 :
" My partner was a TRI/TRE on the 757/767 for a major flag carrier at the age of 23, and she is now a test pilot for Airbus. "
That's a fascinating piece of information, putting into perspective some of your comments from your post of today. I'm at pain trying to assess all the implications of it. Another post, also from Dec 2013 :
“After nearly 30 years of military and civilian flying… “
Waoww…. does everybody think the same as I do ? Sorry, you wrote all that, didn't you ? As for myself, I'm maintaining all my previous posts, which are based on facts, numbers and not ideas.
Expecting more from you in the same vein in the coming days !
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Reinhart
I am assuming that you are not a flight test professional....you certainly do not sound like one.
You could learn a great deal from the careful and rational response from Tester 78.
Your "and she paid for it" remark sows the seeds of unpleasant implications yet your passive aggressive approach lacks the courage to state clearly and unambiguously what you mean by it.
Let's be clear: ETPS is a joint civil/military endeavour which does indeed have a commercial/business imperative behind it. That does not extend-however much you want it to-in the direction of awarding graduation certificates to anyone who pays the course fee. An ETPS course pass (long or short course) is a hard won qualification for each and every candidate and the school's standards have always been high and remain so.
If you doubt me, sign up for a course. Even you may find the short post maintenance flight test course illuminating......but you won't be able to call yourself a test pilot afterwards. Flight test jobs are for the self-motivated and dedicated.......don't dare criticise those positive qualities in someone you barely know.
You could learn a great deal from the careful and rational response from Tester 78.
Your "and she paid for it" remark sows the seeds of unpleasant implications yet your passive aggressive approach lacks the courage to state clearly and unambiguously what you mean by it.
Let's be clear: ETPS is a joint civil/military endeavour which does indeed have a commercial/business imperative behind it. That does not extend-however much you want it to-in the direction of awarding graduation certificates to anyone who pays the course fee. An ETPS course pass (long or short course) is a hard won qualification for each and every candidate and the school's standards have always been high and remain so.
If you doubt me, sign up for a course. Even you may find the short post maintenance flight test course illuminating......but you won't be able to call yourself a test pilot afterwards. Flight test jobs are for the self-motivated and dedicated.......don't dare criticise those positive qualities in someone you barely know.