Visual Docking Guidance System
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Visual Docking Guidance System
Hello there. I am for the first time here, hopefully I have chosen right address for my inquiry.
Here at BEG we are trying to decide whether is better to repair our VDGS units or to buy a new one. In that manner I decide to consult ones (pilots) who know the best what are main features that makes one vdgs good.
What are the pilot's experiences with the visual guidance system on airports worldwide? Is the "Safegate" really so "safe"? What about FMT, Honeywell and ADB products? Which guidance technology has shown as the most friendly in parking operations - laser, ladar, radar, optic or the simple one with the bars and tubes?
Thank you for helping me gather as much reviews to guide mo to the right conclusion about the world trends in visual docking guidance. So, whatever you think as important fact related to this subject - shoot.
Here at BEG we are trying to decide whether is better to repair our VDGS units or to buy a new one. In that manner I decide to consult ones (pilots) who know the best what are main features that makes one vdgs good.
What are the pilot's experiences with the visual guidance system on airports worldwide? Is the "Safegate" really so "safe"? What about FMT, Honeywell and ADB products? Which guidance technology has shown as the most friendly in parking operations - laser, ladar, radar, optic or the simple one with the bars and tubes?
Thank you for helping me gather as much reviews to guide mo to the right conclusion about the world trends in visual docking guidance. So, whatever you think as important fact related to this subject - shoot.
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VGDS recommendations
Petar,
If you haven't already, you should post this thread in the Freight Dogs forum as well as others that catch the attention of more pilots. You picked the right website, but I think you will get more interaction on the other forums. I have worked on the ramp for 2 airlines. One was VDGS and the other wasn't. If I were in your position, I would look at the statistics of safety/incident issues for both. As you know alot of airlines let the bean counters determine operations both ground and inflight and safety is compromised resulting in the highest loss of dollars. Best of luck
If you haven't already, you should post this thread in the Freight Dogs forum as well as others that catch the attention of more pilots. You picked the right website, but I think you will get more interaction on the other forums. I have worked on the ramp for 2 airlines. One was VDGS and the other wasn't. If I were in your position, I would look at the statistics of safety/incident issues for both. As you know alot of airlines let the bean counters determine operations both ground and inflight and safety is compromised resulting in the highest loss of dollars. Best of luck
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Please, no wretched electronic systems. Use common sense and mirrors. A one convex mirror so you can see the whole plane for starting, push-backs, general handling and so forth and a flat mirror so you can see the nosewheel and stop line for docking. No electrics are need, no calibration program etc. and you will reduce the liability for foul-ups. You won't need any staff training (because it is effectively pilot operated) and we get the information we need to park. The only maintenance required is a an occasional wash by the window cleaner. I reckon mirrors would be cheaper to install and run than ANY electronic system and will also be considerably more reliable.
PM
PM
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Please, no wretched electronic systems. Use common sense and mirrors. A one convex mirror so you can see the whole plane for starting, push-backs, general handling and so forth and a flat mirror so you can see the nosewheel and stop line for docking. No electrics are need, no calibration program etc. and you will reduce the liability for foul-ups. You won't need any staff training (because it is effectively pilot operated) and we get the information we need to park. The only maintenance required is a an occasional wash by the window cleaner. I reckon mirrors would be cheaper to install and run than ANY electronic system and will also be considerably more reliable.
PM
PM
Speaking as someone that sees the old Mirror type system and two other electronic type systems in use. The most errors are definitely with the Mirror System. The number of times aircraft stop short on these or pilots can't see their stop markings at night is a frequent occurrence.
Whereas the laser Safedock type is a lot more reliable.
Last edited by Out Of Trim; 23rd Nov 2010 at 02:44.
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LHR has been having some probs with the Safedock system during the recent thick fog , apparently it's not picking up the A/C , hence the Marshallers are being called every minute ....
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Mirrors tend to cause all sorts of problems with aircraft stopping on the wrong marking. It's especially a problem on 'nose loader' airbridge stands where a few feet can make the difference between the airbridge fitting or it not.
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Speaking as someone that sees the old Mirror type system and two other electronic type systems in use. The most errors are definitely with the Mirror System. The number of times aircraft stop short on these or pilots can't see there stop markings at night is a frequent occurrence.
Whereas the l@ser Safedock type is a lot more reliable.
Whereas the l@ser Safedock type is a lot more reliable.
Properly positioned mirrors or nothing whatsoever equals easy parking. Maybe people like 'Out of Trim' shouldn't be allowed to taxi, especially at night. In fifteen years, the only time I have missed my stopping position (let's not talk about taxiing to the wrong stand) was with a brand new 'oh-so-clever' laser parking jobby at EPWA - Stand 4 to be precise. So please, no gizmos, just low tech.
PM
I believe that as far as the UK is concerned mirrors are now a no-no for new installations for the CAA...... and old installations should have a plan for replacement/phasing out.
Mirrors require an agnis to keep on the line (OK .. mainly for night hours as everyone can see the line in daylight
)
CAA don't want systems where pilots have to look at two different places for guidence.
(So agnis + papa are also on the way out)
Mirrors can work fine unless there are multiple stop bars, the mirror gets knocked out of aligment (no vision) or the electrical heaters in them stop working so they mist up/ice over.
edited to add: of course mirrors don't work for the larger a/c types ....
Mirrors require an agnis to keep on the line (OK .. mainly for night hours as everyone can see the line in daylight
)CAA don't want systems where pilots have to look at two different places for guidence.
(So agnis + papa are also on the way out)
Mirrors can work fine unless there are multiple stop bars, the mirror gets knocked out of aligment (no vision) or the electrical heaters in them stop working so they mist up/ice over.
edited to add: of course mirrors don't work for the larger a/c types ....
Last edited by 42psi; 21st Nov 2010 at 08:22.
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Had some issues with safedock during fog at LGW last week. We are not supposed to turn onto stand unless we can see it is switched on with relevant aircraft type showing, as it can screw up the guidance.
As we approached we couldn't tell whether it was on or not. This was because the info was just too blurred (not just my declining eyesight, as F/O couldn't tell either).
On one occasion we were taxying onto stand when safedock suddenly told us to stop (far too short). Looking back, I knew I was short of the mark, but still hit the brakes a little too hard in response to the stop sign, all this while the CC are stood up disarming doors. We were eventually marshalled onto stand.
Never had any issues with the old fashioned systems.
As we approached we couldn't tell whether it was on or not. This was because the info was just too blurred (not just my declining eyesight, as F/O couldn't tell either).
On one occasion we were taxying onto stand when safedock suddenly told us to stop (far too short). Looking back, I knew I was short of the mark, but still hit the brakes a little too hard in response to the stop sign, all this while the CC are stood up disarming doors. We were eventually marshalled onto stand.
Never had any issues with the old fashioned systems.
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I guess none of these systems are perfect then! As someone that switches on the system, ( I'm not a pilot and don't taxy aircraft). I have seen at first hand, many incidents with the old mirror systems; especially with crews that are unfamiliar with this type at night. Probably 90% stop in the wrong place. At LGW with old Nose-loader type jetties; this requires a tug to be attached to move the aircraft into the correct position. ( These Air-bridges only go up and down and in and out to the aircraft, no wheels to manoeuvre).
This is not such a problem with familiar crews; however, I have had to Marshall on a few aircraft myself in wintry conditions as the mirror was totally misted/frosted over and the crews could not see when to stop!
This is not such a problem with familiar crews; however, I have had to Marshall on a few aircraft myself in wintry conditions as the mirror was totally misted/frosted over and the crews could not see when to stop!
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As this thread included mention of Safedock. Thus article from the USA regarding the introduction of Safedock for AA use at O'Hare may be of interest:
Laser-driven system replaces ground personnel who directed pilots into gates
Laser-driven system replaces ground personnel who directed pilots into gates
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It is great that I got so many replies on this subject, every individual experience counts and will be helpful to us.
The question "old school or new school?" is always an interested topic to discuss. Same is here with new and old technologies of guiding aircraft to the stand.
I would like to ask those who had experience with VDGS that we at LYBE are considering to repair or completely remove - Siemens VDOCKS (camera a/c recognition technology), please share some impressions here.
Still, I am more than grateful for any word on this topic. Thank you all.
The question "old school or new school?" is always an interested topic to discuss. Same is here with new and old technologies of guiding aircraft to the stand.
I would like to ask those who had experience with VDGS that we at LYBE are considering to repair or completely remove - Siemens VDOCKS (camera a/c recognition technology), please share some impressions here.
Still, I am more than grateful for any word on this topic. Thank you all.
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I've just been asked to write an article on Docking Guidance Systems in their various forms for a publication called Airside International.
Has the technology moved on at all in the four years since this thread was last updated? Any members' experiences with the various automated systems - good or bad?
I've ascertained that there are at least form manufacturers with an involvement in automated DGS - Safegate, FMT, Hobart Ground Systems and Honeywell. Has anyone any views on how well they work? Are the old fashioned ground marshallers going to finally hang up their bats?
Has the technology moved on at all in the four years since this thread was last updated? Any members' experiences with the various automated systems - good or bad?
I've ascertained that there are at least form manufacturers with an involvement in automated DGS - Safegate, FMT, Hobart Ground Systems and Honeywell. Has anyone any views on how well they work? Are the old fashioned ground marshallers going to finally hang up their bats?
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https://assets.digital.cabinet-offic...pdf_500741.pdf
Oops, this guy thought the AGNIS green lights would turn red to tell him when to stop. AGNIS still in Frankfurt.
For widebody jets, most of the big international airports use automatic systems for passenger flights and marshallers for cargo flights. both work well except in China where the marshallers seem to like to give you a sudden stop. And there can be a fine if you go too far.
Oops, this guy thought the AGNIS green lights would turn red to tell him when to stop. AGNIS still in Frankfurt.
For widebody jets, most of the big international airports use automatic systems for passenger flights and marshallers for cargo flights. both work well except in China where the marshallers seem to like to give you a sudden stop. And there can be a fine if you go too far.
Last edited by JammedStab; 7th Jun 2015 at 02:17.
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This report is nearly 15 years old, however it does highlight the need for pilots to know what Visual Docking Guidance System (VDGS) is provided on parking stands and how to interpret them.
If VDGS is provided and it's not switched on then proceed on to stand at your peril, therefore best to hold off and request a marshal.
If VDGS is provided and it is not understood then again hold off and request a marshal.
Airports should provide accurate detail in the AIP on the VDGS or not provided on parking stands so pilots know what to expect when allocated stands. Not sure though if pilots capture this information in their briefings.
If in doubt hold off stand and request marshal.
If VDGS is provided and it's not switched on then proceed on to stand at your peril, therefore best to hold off and request a marshal.
If VDGS is provided and it is not understood then again hold off and request a marshal.
Airports should provide accurate detail in the AIP on the VDGS or not provided on parking stands so pilots know what to expect when allocated stands. Not sure though if pilots capture this information in their briefings.
If in doubt hold off stand and request marshal.
