Handtools, convincing mangement to buy high quality tools

[SawMan]

I agree with the tools needing to be adequate for the job expected of them. I don't play the 'brand name game' though I have a lot of Snap-on, Mac, and Cornwell tools (which may be a US only brand?) which have served me well. But my larger wrenches are still my first set, made in India by a no-name company that have had 3 foot long pipes slid over them with two large guys jumping on the pipe to break nuts loose and they are still as good a new. (I'm not advocating such abuse, only relating my experience) I've broken brand names with much less severe use and worn out a few as well. What I have now withstands any use I put them to, and cost me about 1/4 of what a similar Snap-on set would have. They are not for sale or loan My Mac long-handled 10mm combo wrench is getting worn so I'll get it replaced. And after 20 years use that ain't bad; nobody could do any better.

Your most-used tools must stand the frequency of service, but your least used tools only need to be good enough. Another aspect is warranty replacement- tools do break sometimes no matter who made them. The Snap-On man will be back next week (and in an emergency you can do a local meet-up with him elsewhere that very day), but if it has to be sent to China to get a replacement shipped back that bears careful thought- you're down for weeks Also, would you rather bend or grind a cheap wrench to fit an odd job or lose that Snap-on warranty by doing that? Either will work just as well for you, but one costs more to replace.

Approach it as I do my personal set- just make sure they are good enough. They may see the light of paying the premium price for some things if you can show where some savings made elsewhere will compensate and still leave you doing fine. And if they don't budge? See my previous post. They will understand unnecessary losses being far more expensive if that starts happening. I'm sure you can find ways to assist in speeding that process along

[NutLoose]

The other advantage which they are probably missing is the likes of Snap On will replace damaged tools like for like, a cheaper purchase could end up being a multiple purchase to replace failed tools, that in itself could exceed the price of a decent tool.

Most of mine are Snap on etc and I have a fair few King Dick from when I started out Civi wise 35 odd years and still going strong. I could count my failed tools in that time on one hand.
One incidentally that I find invaluable is my Snap On ratchet screw driver, the older style one. I am on my second in those 35 years and it gets used and abused daily, Snap On have replaced worn ratchets etc for free in all that time, even the shaft, they don't look a lot when bought, but boy do they deliver.

Having said all that the Halfords professional range are not bad tools either, and don't forget you are entitled to their trade card just you need to check the prices at the till, ohhh and it covers you for everything they sell, though you could find it costs more on discounted items, so you do not use your card on those, the cashier will tell you, and the discounts do vary.

http://www.halfords.com/webapp/wcs/s...03#tab_1042758

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviat...rade-card.html

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[mad_jock]

Does anyone know where the British army used to get there tools in the 80's and before?

The bouncing up and down on a scaffolding pole was pretty common in my day.

And some of the boys had the same set as when they joined up with 15 years abuse delivered to them.

I must admit I have a set of legitimately acquired sockets and spanners with an arrow on them. And although I am not a heavy user of the tools they must be 40-50 years old now and still going strong.

My least used but most liked tool for that era is an old SLR piston with two flats ground on the head to make it legal. I don't know what they made it out of but it is an amazing drift as long as you don't mind destroying what your trying to get out. Only thing is you have to watch you don't use a cheap hammer because it is that hard it may shatter the hammer if you belt it hard enough. I have use it with sledge hammer and its still as straight as the day I killed two grinding wheels putting the flats on it.

The old boys used to have two of these one with a flat head and one with a chisel ground on the end. Which I have seen cut bolt heads off with using a lump hammer.

[onetrack]

MJ - A strong principle I follow is never to use a hardened item as a drift. I've seen too many hardened drifts shatter on the end and have chips of steel fly off.
I've quite often used axles as larger size drifts, with the end heated to red heat and allowed to cool to soften any hardened areas such as seal surfaces.

I have several sets of U.S. Military 3/4 drive sockets, ex-Vietnam. They were apparently purloined by Vietnamese intending to flee, after the fall of Vietnam to the Communists, then smuggled in by those Vietnamese refugees and sold at local auction.

They are "Wright" brand, and I understand they were made by Proto, and "Wright" was the brand name chosen for their military line. The quality of these 3/4 drive sets is of a level that is difficult to find today.

[SawMan]

Originally Posted by onetrack

MJ - A strong principle I follow is never to use a hardened item as a drift.

"Buck" knives used to advertise their blades being tapped with a hammer and cutting a bolt. They would do this because the blade was harder than the bolt, and with the gentlest of 'taps' and enough patience the bolt was severed and the blade wasn't hurt. One single 'tap' too hard and the blade got a huge chip taken out of it. They replaced a few knives under warranty before disallowing this kind of warranty claim. Driven very gently a hardened drift is OK, but driven that gently the hardening isn't needed and the consequences of a mistake too much to risk, so I agree- no hardened drifts!

They are "Wright" brand, and I understand they were made by Proto, and "Wright" was the brand name chosen for their military line. The quality of these 3/4 drive sets is of a level that is difficult to find today.

Wright was made by Proto but I'm not sure it was military-only; they're somewhat common in the tool boxes of us older folks here and some recall buying them retail (if you can trust their aging memories)! The Snap-On/Blue Point relationship is better known. Blue Point made a wide range of tools (carpentry, plumbing, etc) while Snap-On focused only on tools for mechanics. Proud to have all these brands in my box because they never let me down

Though it won't work for the OP's purposes, seeking these great "lesser-known" brands on the used market can net some great bargains because not everyone knows their true worth

[mad_jock]

I am the same as you onetrack normally.

Unless I need 50cm worth of thin drift into confined space as a rear differential on a landy if you managed to get at it just after it was seized with that you could knock the diff lock out and run the thing with the rear prop shaft detached in front wheel drive only.

I honestly don't think you will shatter this thing, its quite unlike any bit of metal I have come across. Its the piston which drives the working parts forward in a high velocity semi automatic rifle with the pressure across a 10mm piston. And it doesn't shatter when the breach jams shut and the working parts stay forward with the gas plug blocked. This does result in the poor sod that pulled the trigger going to hospital though with shattered sinuses and a broken collar bone.

I have seen them belted with a sledge hammer, metal on metal by a 105kg Fijian using it like a war hammer as they do. I might add the tank power pack remained well and truly ed after he had finished with it.

Some had the piston off a GIMPY which is even meatier and longer.

[onetrack]

MJ - Yes, there's some fabulous metal alloys in existence, and when you come across them in scrap and determine what they came from and what qualities they possess, they can be utilised in fine fashion for alternative uses such as drifts.

One of the most intriguing alloy steel items I have come across, is head bolts on air-cooled Deutz diesel engines (I specifically state air-cooled, because Deutz built water-cooled diesels as well!)

The metal in those Deutz head bolts is an alloy that makes tool steel look rather plain.
I'm sure it's a Cr/Mo/V/T variant, but whatever those clever German blokes made it out of, it's an alloy of amazing strength with exceptionally high heat resistance as well.
I've found all kinds of alternative "severe service" uses for them, and they perform with exceptional resistance to heat, hammering, twisting, and every kind of abuse you can shower upon them.

In the opposite vein, I also have another nice soft 1/2" diameter steel drift in my toolbox.
This drift started off life as a early Chinese production (probably late 1970's) 1/2" drive x 10" extension bar - but when I screwed the square off the end of it (!) - when undoing a tight bolt - I decided the best alternative use for it from then on, was as a nice soft drift - at which job it performs much more admirably, than it ever did as a 1/2" drive extension!

I'm with Sawman on searching out the earlier American "lesser-known" brands that have been barely-used, as quality additions to the toolbox.
Another favorite of mine is Bondhus for Allen hex wrenches. The steel in Bondhus hex wrenches is a special steel made to Bondhus specifications, and it outperforms all other tool steels by 20% in strength tests.
The Japanese also make Ko-Ken, which is their answer to Snap-On. Ko-Ken products are not easily found, and they are expensive, but their quality is superb.
I have a set of Ko-Ken impact hex sockets, which are forged one-piece Cr/Mo/V steel, and I use them as hand tools, because most hand tool hex sockets are not one piece and perform poorly under duress.
Nearly all of the hex sockets produced as hand tools merely comprise a section of hex material pressed into a plain socket head. This setup is cheap and nasty, and the hex section will come loose with severe service.

[Rodney Ram jet]

Quality does matter

As an A&P mechanic for 20 years I can
answer your question and give examples
to my answer, most nuts and bolts on
aircraft are steel, but most aircraft
structure itself is aluminum. A poor
quality wrench will strip the head off
of a bolt much easier than a high
quality wrench from Snap On. Taking
into consideration that most bolts on
aircraft are located in areas with very
limited access, you now have a bolt
that no wrench will remove, even if
you have access to use power tools
trying to drill out a steel bolt in an
aluminum structure you run the high
risk of damaging the aluminum
structure getting the bolt out. So now
the Snap On wrench doesn't look that
expensive. I have personally seen
this happen several times in Aviation
costing the operator many thousands
of dollars and a couple of mechanics
their jobs.

[NutLoose]

The British military in the 70's and 80's used King Dick, Gordon and Bahco tools, my locking pliers were Maun.

[om15]

During WWII Packhard made Merlins under licence and shipped to the UK, each engine had a basic service tool kit containing BSF ring spanners, I have a couple of these manufactured by Blue Point and used them every day for 20 years working on Darts, they are a slender as Snap on, in matt finish, still in the same condition as when they were made 70 odd years ago, still used occasionally as assorted nuts and bolts on my BSA come from redundant AGS stock acquired over the years.

[Ant T]

A poor quality wrench will strip the head off of a bolt much easier than a high quality wrench from Snap On.

Years ago when I was working as a car mechanic, the Snap-on dealer used to give a very convincing demonstration of this - he had a hex bar of hard nylon and would put one of his ring spanners on it and one of any other competitors, and then twist one against the other. The non Snap-on was always the one to round off the bar.

[cockney steve]

^^^^^Yes, back in the daya very valid and convincing demonstration.
Unfortunately for Snap-on, many new pretenders, as well as the progressives among the old guard, have upped their game..."flankdrive,in it's many guises, is now mainstream...30-odd years ago, I figured a single-hex spanner or socket would not only drive a worn, burred fastener, but would release a tight,good one with less damage than a bi-hex gripping only the extreme corners.
In the late 1950's a friend was an army tank-driver he claimed "Brittool" described their tools perfectly and had broken many...in a Civilian environment,they were among the best.

Price is not the only criterion and, unfortunately,neither is a reputable brand-name.-See my previous, re-Bahco,A once-proud, top-line Swedish manufacturer.
Good tools are expensive. Down-time, injuries,damaged fasteners and collateral damage caused by poor tool performance, cost far more.
Mercedes Benz succumbed tothe bean-counter's greed They looked great but reliability and durability suffered enormously. The company is slowly clawing it's reputation back, but they would have made far more profit,overall, by not skimping in the first place.

[LASJayhawk]

Inexpensive tooling is made for light duty occasional use. Quality tools are made for severe daily use.

Beyond the issues of damage to expensive aircraft parts and even more expensive human parts is the cost of replacements.

Ask the bean counters how much it costs to cut a PO to replace a tool. Saving 10 bucks on a wrench doesn't make much sense if you have to replace it twice as often and it costs 50 bucks to cut an order.

[onetrack]

More important, is the risk of physical injury to the user, and consequent high compensation costs, if a cheap tool breaks when being used under duress.

[winglit]

Jaja,

you say you work for a maintenance organisation, so I assume you do third party aircraft.

Do you think your customers would be happy letting you loose on their thirty million dollar aeroplane with a box full cheap tools that are likely to cause damage and extend ground time due to mishaps which could have easily been avoided using quality tooling?

In my previous job as a tech rep for an airline, I was tasked with surveying the premises, staff, facilities and equipment before a contract was awarded. A quick glimpse in the toolboxes always gave me some confidence if they were equipped with quality tools. In the same way that a decent sheet metal worker will turn up for work with his own-made tool box.

[Mechta]

• Always get photos of damage from poor quality tools
• Record time taken to put right damage. This includes getting replacement parts as well as installation
• Get the guys to bring in worn or broken tools to show the beancounters and keep examples (but clearly labelled as U/S!)
• List jobs that cannot be done without high quality tools e.g. access so tight only a fine ratchet will actually turn in the space
• As LASJayhawk says, the cost of processing a purchase order is often greater than the tool itself
• Be ready to demonstrate to the bean counters what measures you will take to prevent pilfering and loss of good quality tools
• A slipped spanner might not just damage the fastener, it might also dent an aluminium or honeycomb panel or stress wiring. Scratched paintwork or trim may also result. Once this has to be repaired, the cost of the proper tool is peanuts in comparison
• As Winglit says, poor quality tools on the shop/hangar floor may lose you a customer before you ever see their aircraft.
• Make sure fasteners in Kanban have the correct tool identified against them. I've seen a good few Pozidrive screws get destroyed by people using Philips bits on them.

[AviGuy]

One word: FOD
If your tool breaks, and we all know that they can, you have to find all the parts of that broken tool. Chip the corner of a flat screwdriver, you have to find that chip. Now you are wasting hours or days looking for it, and you are grounded. Or the chip ends up in the cables, engine or flight controls, now you lost the aircraft, crew, and classroom of little kids that the airframe collided with in uncontrolled decent. All beacuse of a chipped screwdriver. I know that seems extreem, but this is what we all deal with in aerospace.

[Rigidhead]

Some years ago, I was a supervisor in a completions organization and a very close friend was a QA Inspector. We had recently hired two younger guys that were just starting their careers, and therefore their tool collection.
The inspector and I quickly found that we could tell which part of an installation was being carried out by the new guys by the marks left on the hardware from their "less costly" wrenches and sockets.
The fix for this was to let them use our tools as they slowly built up their own kits with higher quality items. (We never found any marked up hardware again)

Rigidhead

[B19]

Regarding hand tools and there quality. As an Aviation Machines Mate in the Navy in the late 70's the government supplied us with hand tools an such they were for the most part cheaper brands. It wasn't till I got into the private sector that I realized how valuable good hand tools can be. My tools today are a cross between high and mid quality tools. You can shop around and find tools that are very close to snap-on quality but cost much less. The thing is you need to shop around and that takes time. Maybe get the bean counters to take a close look and find a happy medium between the junk tools and a good quality tool. My company gives a tool allowance $100.00 a month, you can buy what ever you want. They also replace any power tool such as impacts, riveting tool, air ratchets....... one for one same brand.

[sprocket check]

The tool trade is very different now to 20, or even 10 years ago.

It now comes down to the brands specifications and interest in quality assurance. Many, including the most famous brands are no longer manufacturing in the original country of origin.

The primary factor in toolmaking is access to the right steel for the tool, only closely followed by the process used in processing this steel. The various high quality steels have different hardening, etc requirements, as most here would appreciate. The Chinese factories will tout ISO9001 and TUV and other certifications but the reality is the materials are doubtable, as well as the processes.

This is not so much a problem with Taiwanese factories, quite the opposite, for the most part. Seeing China as a major competitor they run a high QA attitude.

Most high end brands now manufacture in Taiwan, those seeking greater profits are moving or have moved to China.

The other issue is buying from chains and majors such as Blackwoods, which is effectively doing to tool makers what Coles and Woolies do to farmers…