Helios Judge's Reasoning
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Europe
Posts: 1,416
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now is the time for a forensic examination of the role played by the UK CAA, who issued Alan's licence, in this shameful episode.
It may be that behind the scenes they were exerting every pressure they could, via EASA, the European Commission, the UK Government, to protect and support a UK citizen, and uphold the integrity of the licence they issued.
Or maybe not. Forgive my cynicism. If they did do all that, I apologise.
If they did not, senior figures need to explain why, starting with the Chairman and CEO, if they can be diverted for a few moments from Safety Management seminars and chocolate bar manufacturing safety.
It may be that behind the scenes they were exerting every pressure they could, via EASA, the European Commission, the UK Government, to protect and support a UK citizen, and uphold the integrity of the licence they issued.
Or maybe not. Forgive my cynicism. If they did do all that, I apologise.
If they did not, senior figures need to explain why, starting with the Chairman and CEO, if they can be diverted for a few moments from Safety Management seminars and chocolate bar manufacturing safety.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Middle East
Age: 52
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PART 66 B
Capot.
I follow this discussion now since weeks, and I apologize not stepping in earlier.
Gents, you discussed POO SMELL in an A330 , but important things You never speak out.
British CAA will never take action, as long as HELIOS QA will not raise an inquiry, check PART 66 B. And dealing with the brits for licences of my staff, as long no one pays the bill, they will not bother.
Fact 1: every one is responsible for his own license
Fact 2: a Part 66 is only workable in a PART 145 enviroment
Fact 3 there was a terrible accident
Was Alan guilty, no from my side, and I will state this in an official document as approved expert once required. Was maintenance guilty ?
YES, and for the following reasons:
Like sheeps, you are following every down cutting in your company. If passeneger would know, where they are sitting in, they would not fly.
Pilots and Stewardesses are striking, where are you my fellow ENGINEERS ?
Do you know, that in Management courses for 145 , they teach 0.5 Engineers per AC ? Do you know that EK is at 0.2, LH at the same and BA, where are you ?
Gents
No one will help you if you dont help yourself.
Just my 2 cents
H3DXB
I follow this discussion now since weeks, and I apologize not stepping in earlier.
Gents, you discussed POO SMELL in an A330 , but important things You never speak out.
British CAA will never take action, as long as HELIOS QA will not raise an inquiry, check PART 66 B. And dealing with the brits for licences of my staff, as long no one pays the bill, they will not bother.
Fact 1: every one is responsible for his own license
Fact 2: a Part 66 is only workable in a PART 145 enviroment
Fact 3 there was a terrible accident
Was Alan guilty, no from my side, and I will state this in an official document as approved expert once required. Was maintenance guilty ?
YES, and for the following reasons:
Like sheeps, you are following every down cutting in your company. If passeneger would know, where they are sitting in, they would not fly.
Pilots and Stewardesses are striking, where are you my fellow ENGINEERS ?
Do you know, that in Management courses for 145 , they teach 0.5 Engineers per AC ? Do you know that EK is at 0.2, LH at the same and BA, where are you ?
Gents
No one will help you if you dont help yourself.
Just my 2 cents
H3DXB
h3dxb,
Although stated in relatively poor english - I think your message comes across quite clear and very strong.
In UK engineers have always been "every man for himself" instead of "united" like cabin and cockpit crew mostly are. However. Unwritten terms and conditions for UK engineers don't exactly lend themselves to being militant and meek complaints don't make much noise when money talks.
There is an expectation in UK that engineers won't let the operators down and that they all make do with their lot. This happens to a certain extent - and then, all of a sudden, some engineers leave for better pay/conditions or perhaps for a perceived better treatment by bosses!
It may sound ludicrous but, for most, it works. (but we're still not quire sure how?)
Although stated in relatively poor english - I think your message comes across quite clear and very strong.
In UK engineers have always been "every man for himself" instead of "united" like cabin and cockpit crew mostly are. However. Unwritten terms and conditions for UK engineers don't exactly lend themselves to being militant and meek complaints don't make much noise when money talks.
There is an expectation in UK that engineers won't let the operators down and that they all make do with their lot. This happens to a certain extent - and then, all of a sudden, some engineers leave for better pay/conditions or perhaps for a perceived better treatment by bosses!
It may sound ludicrous but, for most, it works. (but we're still not quire sure how?)
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Middle East
Age: 52
Posts: 214
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rigga
Sorry for my poor english
thought I improved .
It is not the UK or European Industry I'm worried about, it is the general down turn of our terms and conditions as Engineers.
It is getting more and more difficult to get a license, a type rating and an authorization, not even speaking about a proper paid job.
CAA's dont care actually once you have a license, and there will be no support.
You are alone responsible for your license under all circumstances.
How much a newbie has to pay now for a license ? 30K ? Typerating ? 25K ? and what does he earn ?
Just another 2 cents.
H3DXB
Sorry for my poor english
thought I improved .It is not the UK or European Industry I'm worried about, it is the general down turn of our terms and conditions as Engineers.
It is getting more and more difficult to get a license, a type rating and an authorization, not even speaking about a proper paid job.
CAA's dont care actually once you have a license, and there will be no support.
You are alone responsible for your license under all circumstances.
How much a newbie has to pay now for a license ? 30K ? Typerating ? 25K ? and what does he earn ?
Just another 2 cents.
H3DXB
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Cyprus
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Helios Judge's reasoning
Good for Alan but still a shame for Aviation!!! Three professionals were dragged from one Court to other in two EU countries simultaneously and convicted for a crime they didn't do. And all based on a hypothetical inadequate Greek final report. They were blamed for allowing two "incompetent"pilots to execute the flight.How could incompetent judges decide the competence of two properly licensed and trained ,medically fit pilots.These two pilots had thousands of hours experience in different airlines.They were trained and examined by different examiners and they passed.What criteria was used in this kangaroo court to put a blame on the three people accused?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Helios Verdict
It is really good news that Alan has been aquitted, however, the court still seems to be of the opinion that he left the PMS in MAN despite there being no evidence to support this.
It is interesting that while Alan has all along rightly received overwhelming support from his fellow engineers and a heap of drivers, the CEO and the two management pilots have had little or no support from fellow managers in this or any other forum! Keeping their corporate heads below the parapet no doubt.
As UK CAA was mentioned, they were responsible for the safety oversight of Helios and had recommended continuance of the AOC only two months prior to the accident. There was nothing wrong with the way helios was run, so let's have a few management meerkats poking their heads out of their cosy burrows and boycotting anything Greek in support of Demetris, Ianko and George.
It is interesting that while Alan has all along rightly received overwhelming support from his fellow engineers and a heap of drivers, the CEO and the two management pilots have had little or no support from fellow managers in this or any other forum! Keeping their corporate heads below the parapet no doubt.
As UK CAA was mentioned, they were responsible for the safety oversight of Helios and had recommended continuance of the AOC only two months prior to the accident. There was nothing wrong with the way helios was run, so let's have a few management meerkats poking their heads out of their cosy burrows and boycotting anything Greek in support of Demetris, Ianko and George.
h3dxb I appreciate where you are coming from but things are more complex than you make out...
Comparing Engineers to Pilots and Cabin Crew is fine but don't forget that the general management philosophy everywhere is that Engineers are a necessary evil! This is hardly a good starting point from our perspective. Yes, as has been mentioned a lot (but not all) Engineers are simply in it for themselves! However, for things to seriously change we need to have things like mandated maximum working hours (which isn't going happen anytime soon!)
I'd disagree that obtaining a license is harder than ever these days. Pre EASA, some of us remember scratching around for revision material, penalty marking, orals (and taking the exams for a whole BCAR category in one sitting!) These days, you can choose between of plethora of web based question banks to use as "study" aids and there are plenty of JAR147 courses to choose from with in-house exams to knock off those modules!
Some of the licensed guys being churned out today simply want to earn big money within the shortest possible time. They forget that holding & exercising approvals on large transport aircraft involves a level of experience & responsibility which can and should take a few years to acquire! The Spanair and Helios accident reports should be made compulsory reading!
Comparing Engineers to Pilots and Cabin Crew is fine but don't forget that the general management philosophy everywhere is that Engineers are a necessary evil! This is hardly a good starting point from our perspective. Yes, as has been mentioned a lot (but not all) Engineers are simply in it for themselves! However, for things to seriously change we need to have things like mandated maximum working hours (which isn't going happen anytime soon!)
I'd disagree that obtaining a license is harder than ever these days. Pre EASA, some of us remember scratching around for revision material, penalty marking, orals (and taking the exams for a whole BCAR category in one sitting!) These days, you can choose between of plethora of web based question banks to use as "study" aids and there are plenty of JAR147 courses to choose from with in-house exams to knock off those modules!
Some of the licensed guys being churned out today simply want to earn big money within the shortest possible time. They forget that holding & exercising approvals on large transport aircraft involves a level of experience & responsibility which can and should take a few years to acquire! The Spanair and Helios accident reports should be made compulsory reading!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: West Sussex
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So this is Bad Management
The management of Helios Airways were found guilty; check out your own favourite airline against this.
The AAIASB Report found that the Flight and Cabin crew were medically fit, well rested and qualified (OED - trained and competent) to conduct the flight.
The aircraft had a current C of A and carried no defects.
Safety oversight was by UK CAA
No significant deficiencies were noted in audits and the UK CAA Inspector recommended continuance of the Helios Airways AOC on 5 June 2005.
It doesn't get much better than that, so what are they guilty of?
The AAIASB Report found that the Flight and Cabin crew were medically fit, well rested and qualified (OED - trained and competent) to conduct the flight.
The aircraft had a current C of A and carried no defects.
Safety oversight was by UK CAA
No significant deficiencies were noted in audits and the UK CAA Inspector recommended continuance of the Helios Airways AOC on 5 June 2005.
It doesn't get much better than that, so what are they guilty of?
Boeing eng
Nicely put. I tried a post but deleted it as it just wasn't good enough.
Your comment on engineers being seen as a necessary evil strikes a chord.
Management seem unable to grasp the fact that a good committed engineering department actually saves them money.
I offer the following as an example. 737-700 nosewheel steering lockout handle sticks in the aircraft towing position.
Usual answer was to replace the steering metering unit. This was often after a serious delay involving getting an engineer on site. On one occasion there were 3 occurences on three different aircraft in one day.
Two engineers on the night shift work out a fix that takes 30 minutes and can be accomplished on the line with the only spare required being a split pin!!!!!
Cost saving to the airline millions, reward to engineers involved not even a thanks.
Another example being a senior manager who told the engineering staff that his statistics said that the aircraft availability they were achieving was impossible!!!!!!!
A committed experienced workforce pays for itself and reduces airline cost and therefore increaces profits. You have to ask why the engineering departments in many organisations are treated so badly when they are so important to commercial success.
Could be that the bean counters know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
Nicely put. I tried a post but deleted it as it just wasn't good enough.
Your comment on engineers being seen as a necessary evil strikes a chord.
Management seem unable to grasp the fact that a good committed engineering department actually saves them money.
I offer the following as an example. 737-700 nosewheel steering lockout handle sticks in the aircraft towing position.
Usual answer was to replace the steering metering unit. This was often after a serious delay involving getting an engineer on site. On one occasion there were 3 occurences on three different aircraft in one day.
Two engineers on the night shift work out a fix that takes 30 minutes and can be accomplished on the line with the only spare required being a split pin!!!!!
Cost saving to the airline millions, reward to engineers involved not even a thanks.
Another example being a senior manager who told the engineering staff that his statistics said that the aircraft availability they were achieving was impossible!!!!!!!
A committed experienced workforce pays for itself and reduces airline cost and therefore increaces profits. You have to ask why the engineering departments in many organisations are treated so badly when they are so important to commercial success.
Could be that the bean counters know the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
If they could, all airlines would hire aircraft like cars and dump them every night to pick up a new one in the morning. No maintenance activity what-so-ever. Just drive - and keep driving.
Lets face it...We don't like our cars to be worked on either.
But in MROs that are allowed to cover other airline contracts - profits can be made that actually support the airline losses.
Yes. Maintenance is a necessary evil.
Lets face it...We don't like our cars to be worked on either.
But in MROs that are allowed to cover other airline contracts - profits can be made that actually support the airline losses.
Yes. Maintenance is a necessary evil.
