angels

Folks, there's a thread in R&N that has descended into the usual bunfight. A question I asked there has not been answered so can you help please?

Essentially it is, you get a nice shiny new plane with splendid new engines. After a couple of sectors one of the engines goes tech. Does the engine come with a 'guarantee'? Does the airline bill the manufacturer if you repair it? If its a major fault requiring a stripdown, do they do it?

Or does the manufacturer just shrug it off and leave you to carry the can?

No ulterior motive here -- I'm SLF -- apart from curiosity and the vaguely amusing thought of seeing a load of engines lined up at Farnborough with 'Guaranteed for Three years or 10,000 hours' or somesuch stuck to them.

Cheers.

matkat

A new aircraft is under one years warranty the engines usually have an hours restrictive guarantee for CFMI IIRC is 2500 hours for a complete warranty but dependand on the take up this will only cover repairs for full cover ie removal/refit + transportation and lease engine costs an additional warranty has to be paid for. This is also true of overhauled engines dependand on the repair contract taken out prior to shop visit.

SNS3Guppy

Depends on the aircraft and the purchase arrangements. Various plans are available to cover the powerplants, but there are never any guarantees. It's a mechanical object, and it's life depends very much on how it's operated, how it's inspected, and how it's maintained. It's not like a car.

When an engine fails, it may be for a variety of reasons, many of which may have little or nothing to do with the engine itself. An accessory failure being driven by the engine, for example, may require a shutdown of the engine,when the engine is fine; a constant speed drive unit driving an electrical generator, for example; the engine produces power, but the CSD failure may require a shutdown. Does this mean the engine has failed or gone "TU?" No. It means a precautionary shutdown for other reasons. Would this be under some type of warranty? Perhaps, or perhaps not.

Depending on the manufacturer (which is not the aircraft manufacturer), loaner or rental engines may be available if the troubled engine must be removed...or not.

In the maintenance world, engines carry their own logbooks and maintenance history because they may move between aircraft from time to time as they are removed for service or overhaul; they don't necessarily stay with the same airframe.

The specific arrangements for a given problem for a given aircraft for a given operator vary with the arrangements made by the manufacturer and the operator, and the specific nature of the problem.

ericferret

Many engines are supplied on power by the hour contracts. Responsibility remains with the supplier usually the manufacturer.

Blacksheep

When you set the configuration for a new aircraft there are as many different processes as there are manufacturers. The terms of the contracts for all major equipment selections - engines especially - will depend partly on the negotiator and partly on the operator's bargaining strength. Big Airways will get a better deal than Little Airways, its just common sense.

On most airliners you have a choice of engines and you negotiate with each manufacturer over technical support, reliability guarantees, performance guarantees, power by the hour rates, etc. You choose the engine that seems to give the lowest long term operational cost. The selection process can take a couple of years and right to the end it ain't over until its over.

For other equipment there are a number of approaches. Some examples:

Boeing: Equipment is either Supplier Furnished Equipment (SFE) or Buyer furnished Equipment (BFE).

With SFE you have no choice of supplier, it comes with the aircraft; an example might be the Auto Flight Control System or the Powered Flying Control Units.

For BFE, the operator can choose from a number of suppliers and negotiate the best deal they can get. Most BFE comes with a supplier's 3 year warranty. Examples might be the VHF Comms, TCAS or Navigation suite or even the galleys and lavatory modules. Cabin equipment - seats, cabinets etc. are always BFE.

Airbus: Everything is set by Airbus. You get a choice of supplier, but the price is negotiated with the supplier and fixed by Airbus. Your negotiating point with the supplier is over the support conditions - warranty terms, reliability and performance guarantees. I like to try and get agreements for free or reduced price product improvement modifications during the initial years.

The mistake many operators make is to bargain the supplier down to a rock-bottom purchase price. It looks good to the CEO and Finance people - indeed they can seldom resist interfering at this point, usually with disastrous long-term implications. The supplier will always sting you on support and without a reliability guarantee you're helpless.

The best deal for long term operating cost - the cost of ownership - is to shave a small amount from the initial price offer and drive a hard bargain on support and reliability. This is especially true for engines.