I have just seen a company memo that states that FLS are going to do DC-10 C checks in 10 Days,(Airtours Aircraft) (anyone got any gen?) seams a bit quick for me!!!
We used to do 747-400 c checks at BAMC in that sort of time, the variables are what mod's sb's etc need incorporating and the big variable of faults found could double that time.
With great respect for the viet taff at BAMC, a B7474 is generally a bit younger than your average DC10 and has the great advantage,corrosion wise anyway,of vaccy bogs. Now to change the subject slightly,I thought the lamms manuals of the Douglas were the best for their multi functional simplicity. Anyone agree? Also,slightly off beam,the DC10 is the only type where I have done an airframe borescope. On the gear grease channels! Never add to confusion by pretending you know what you're doing. Oh yeah!Everyone I speak to professionally seems to be concerned about declining standards in aviation.
Someone,somewhere in some office ,probably came out with the statement;"we'll do it in 9 days". I once worked for an airline,where someone in some office,somewhere,had done some research and came up with figures for each route and load that amount of potable water on to the b747.Great said the management this is going to save us pennies. Anyway I,m sure you've all guessed already,that the first flight to Vancouver ran out of H2O en route,hence urgent telex issued to disregard those figures and fill em up.Never did hear what happened to that guy? Those 9 day c checks can be done if the aircraft has been exceptionally well maintained and you put blinkers on so you only do exactly what is on the job card!
Sounds about right to me. The 10 days willbe purely for the basic check. Any additionals such as defects or sb's etc will take extra time. They (FLS) do our 737 C checks in 6 days (but these are new aircraft). As stated previously, when the time was calculated it was assumed that the inspectors would only look at exactly what is on the card, ignore everything in the surrounding area, that will be covered by another card..........
It is always the same old marketing ploy these outfits use.."we will do it in less time than ...." SASCO in Singapore have signed up for qty 5, B747-400 C checks for LH to be done in 20 days...for sure LHT in Hamburg could not do that!
As stated before, amazing what turns up on a non routine card. Same old story around the world, you and me carry the can and some marketing guy gets his 0.5 percent slice of the pie for making promises.
NFF PRF, that's why I don't work there anymore. I did add a few variables on, a basic work pack would be around that. General rule of thumb was for every 2 routine manhours you would add 1 for defect rectification, so 9 + 4.5 would be a better guess.
If I remember rightly the record for an aircraft out of Taffs Garage when I worked at Gatport Airwick was eight tech log pages and twenty four cabin log pages filled with defects and that was only flying Cardif-LGW. The bloody heap didn't fly for about a fortnight after arriving back in civilisation.
And to cap it all the beancounters blamed us for the aircraft being unserviceable, after all it left Taffistan on time so must have been our fault!! That's what comes of giving kwikfit mechanics six weeks training and letting them lose on Mr Boeings wonderful flying machines.
Mr Banana, I agree totally with your comments about unskilled labour.
This industry is rapidly becoming a very dangerous place to associate ones-self with.
I don't blame the blokes for taking up the career. You can earn good money compared with a Kwik Fit Fitter repairing tyres in your local garage.
However there is an accident that is waiting to happen, AND IT WILL and it will kill hundreds of people. I've seen the aftermath of an incident where people lost their lives and believe me it's not something I want to experience again.
When it does happen I don't want to be around to say "Told you so!"
There are still aircraft at Gatport that have the scars from Whales after a "major" (Ha what a joke!) several months ago.
If I put my car into a garage and it came out in the ex-Taffs state I'd sue.
I got stuck at taffs garage for five years, luckily i managed to escape to tell the tale. Scary old place though, lovely blokes those kwik fit mechs, just a bit thick !!!
Unfair to blame all snags on Kwikfit Fitters lads. To put a C check in perspective. If it was signed up as a fixed price contract and with penalties if the aircraft was late out of the hangar, it would not matter if you were an ace with more certs than you could shake at stick at, or a lowly kwikfit fitter, that aeroplane would be going out of the door purely due to commercial pressures, not because of any lack of ability on the engineers who did the work.
The problem will always be unrealistic deadlines, budget or time wise.
Jango?5 c checks in 20 days or 5 at 20 days each?Both seem to be wrong but knowing SQ it will be the 5 in 20. Maybe that is why they are desperate for contractors at the mo.
With regards to 'C' checks, I read an artical that stated 'C' checks will become a thing of the past, and Britannia are using this as justification for putting E & M up for sale. The thing is, all the inspections, all the annual routine maintenance that does not get covered on 'A' checks, all the tests and functions that are mandatory requirements and very time consuming are going to have to be done at some point. Someone somewhere, and I expect sitting in an office with no concept of aircraft maintenance has wirtten this drivel and our financial wizz kids are believing it. Sorry lads, but I think that the bean counters have won this one.
Location: Across the road from the remains of deHavilland
Age: 61
Posts: 2,167
Maybe we have to share some of the blame?
In the end its the maintainance engineers and certifiers that set the standard. If we accept commercial pressure to get the aircraft out of the door, then its only natural for the 'bean-counters' to assume that everything is OK and it can be done every time. One of the problems of 3rd party maintenance is that the customer is king. When a customer rep. decides that he doesn't want something fixed, we accept it and turn a blind eye. The aircraft goes out on deadline in cr*ppy condition, the customer has his Certificate that the AMS has been satisfied. Then the next aircraft into the hangar is one of our own. Isn't it only natural for the bean-counters to wonder why we can do someone elses "C" check in 5 days and then spend 10 days on our doing our own?
Perhaps the answer is for us to start refusing to withold defects. When a customer wants one ignored, he might sign it off himself. What happens if we refuse to certify the Scheduled Task? The employer is sure to exert pressure, very strong pressure, but I simply don't believe that any company can afford to threaten penalties if the defect is genuine. In the end we are supported by the ANO (in UK anyway) and threatening a certifying engineer would be grounds for removal of the company's approval. I must put it on record that in my career I have refused to certify on three occasions. Twice I came under severe pressure to sign and stood my ground. Nothing ever happened, in fact after one occasion I was promoted! Taking this a step further, maybe our willingness to "get the job done" is the reason for our low status and pay?
This is not a wind-up, but an attempt to provoke some serious discussion on the current trend to 'get them out the door as fast as possible.' Let's have some more opinion on this subject.
********************************** Through difficulties to the cinema
Aeroguru, it was 5 checks in a 20 day period. 4 days per check, straight c, noextra work...if you believe that. And no doubt the guys who first get the aircraft back on the line in sausage eating country will be moaning like phook at the state of the aircraft...and the bean counters will be laughing all the way to the golf course...
The only sure fire way is to stick to principles and not realease the aircraft until the defect is sorted. After you've been in the shed for a 14hr day and you just want to go home, 9 times out of 10 you are going to sign and worry about it all the way home ...right?
I have been on both sides as a operator trying get my aircraft out on time and as the facility trying to not to give in to customer pressure. It is not easy from either view point. You can not say it is down to lose ethics of an engineer either, some guys may appear to pen things off sooner than others, some are sticklers for perfection and crossing tees and dotting the eyes?? In reality how many times does it come down to a crunch confrontation? probably not that often when you consider how many dogs you kick out of the hangar week in week out....so whats the answer? If there is an answer, you are a better man than me Gungadin.
[This message has been edited by Jango (edited 06 June 2000).]
On a C check the tech normally has to insp areas ,and certify for work carried out. He has the unenviable task of being responsible for the final product that his men have produced , whether its a single nut on a seat or a whole skin repair, If the check time is reduced does this mean that his time spent on insp work carried out is reduced? I think not! This must mean that he has to allow his lads no matter how experienced to do certain tasks with out him seeing them. Less time must mean more men. This must mean less actual work monitored. I do trust most of the fitters that work under me but no matter how good they are they DO MAKE MISTAKES, they may only be minor, but a damaged O ring maybe the oil leak on an ETOPS flight, and its the poor guy that signed for it that they will look for not the fitter. The way the law is now, they do say that the directors of a company are liable if a disaster occurs (you know what I mean!!!) but remember this, come the big inquiry they will look for the tech signature as well.
I wonder if this is an argument to get me a pay rise (DIRECTORS MONEY )
We all know that if the companies employed more licenced and experienced guys, the work load on each would be less and the quality of the final product would increase ...but tell the bean counters that! I think that more often than not an extra day on the check would solve the problems. How many times do customers push for an aircraft, fly the thing back to line and it frigging sits there while they complain what a state it is in? Let me have it one more day and it will be clean?...vicious circle
9 Day C checks 
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