Aviation in the the NSW Fires
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Aviation in the the NSW Fires
Firstly all the best to the pilots and ground crews involved in the NSW fire disaster.
My question is, what air assests do the NSW Fire Board have available to them to fight, spot and control the fires.
I am not from east, until very reicently, and am intersted in the way its done over here.
Is there any large fixed wing water bombers available either on lease or owned, and do we need them, I think we do. I remember seeing an article some years ago about the RAAF using C130s as fire bombers, any one have info on this.
All info appreciated, and once again all the best to the people involved.
My question is, what air assests do the NSW Fire Board have available to them to fight, spot and control the fires.
I am not from east, until very reicently, and am intersted in the way its done over here.
Is there any large fixed wing water bombers available either on lease or owned, and do we need them, I think we do. I remember seeing an article some years ago about the RAAF using C130s as fire bombers, any one have info on this.
All info appreciated, and once again all the best to the people involved.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: NSW, AUSTRALIA
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G'day AMRAAM,
I did a bit of research into aerial firefighting assets a few years back - cant find the **** I pumped out unfortunately.
I do remember some vague details though - One being that there is a conversion that you can do to a c130 or Caribou (or even a P3C - although this requires significant mods) to make them temporary firefighters. The coversion can be done in a matter of hours and the C130 from the stats we looked at i seem to remember the C130 to be quite a good platform for Aust. It was certianly more cost effective than buying/leasing those canadair things that they were talking about at the time.
Check the web theres a few companies in the states that do that sort of thing and plenty of info to be found there.
I did a bit of research into aerial firefighting assets a few years back - cant find the **** I pumped out unfortunately.
I do remember some vague details though - One being that there is a conversion that you can do to a c130 or Caribou (or even a P3C - although this requires significant mods) to make them temporary firefighters. The coversion can be done in a matter of hours and the C130 from the stats we looked at i seem to remember the C130 to be quite a good platform for Aust. It was certianly more cost effective than buying/leasing those canadair things that they were talking about at the time.
Check the web theres a few companies in the states that do that sort of thing and plenty of info to be found there.
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Assets consist of numerous helicopters and a number of Ag aircraft fitted out for fire suppression. Namely Air Tractor 502 and 802 variants. The first number eg 5 in the 502 means it's hopper holds 500 US gallons of water and so on. Some other Ag aircraft such as the PZL Dromadeer. Also a large number of fixed wing aircraft used for fire survey and spotting as well as transport for fire fighters if required.
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As a not too small aside, we should be really grateful for the job the fire fighting guys on the ground and in the helo's (from what i have seen) are doing.
We owe a lot for their courage and effort.
We owe a lot for their courage and effort.
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NSW Govt only has about 2 fixed wing fire bombing contracts verses around ten for the NRE in Victoria and several in S.A. all filled by aerial Ag operators in mostly turbine equipment.
Why the difference is anyones guess but its' been the same for years.
Given the presently quiet cotton season there are plenty of extra suitable aircraft available for short term hire!
Why the difference is anyones guess but its' been the same for years.
Given the presently quiet cotton season there are plenty of extra suitable aircraft available for short term hire!
I'm taking a day off, having been flying since Monday 0700, reached my limit for fire fighting dispensation. Current air assets in place are >50 aircraft, we're just getting an extra machine today bringing us to 2 x B206's, 2 x BK117's, a 212 and a 412, here at Hawkesbury. RFS have a site <a href="http://www.bushfire.nsw.gov.au/main.htm" target="_blank">here</a> with a daily update.
Contract to RFS are 2 BK117's for 3 months, almost everything else is casual hire. The Skycrane is on it's way from Victoria tomorrow, all these casual hire's come under a Section 44 declaration, which gets paid for by state revenue, opposed to RFS budget.
Some of the worst fires I've hit, and still a shortage of air assets. I had the only medium on line from Grose Vale to Kurrajong from Monday to Wednesday, and was pulled from one fire to another at the drop of a hat on 25th. Over Kurrajong when it turned into a firestorm, explosions from the high tension power lines, crowning right through the urban area, I could only hit about 100 yards into the fire, smoke and flames too thick to get through. Pleasing to get back after and see houses that were saved, disappointing to see the ones that just couldn't be saved. Some just shouldn't have gone (30 yards of untouched green grass surrounding a two storey burnt out house, with a pool and 2 water tanks!!), the frustration of trying to turn back a 4 wheel drive intent on driving into the bush to get to his house, through 15 metre high flames. Streets full of sightseeing idiots, in the way of firefighters and residents trying to get out. Sheer frustration of working for 4 hours to hold a containment line, only to have the wind push spotovers across and start all over again. Freight train fires roaring up a hill, trying to get in and put a wet line between the troops on the ground and the flames, ocassional compressor stall banging away as one of the donks starves of oxygen, find a dam and start again.
Day off today, tomorrow and Sunday forecast 35-40C. I can hardly wait.
Contract to RFS are 2 BK117's for 3 months, almost everything else is casual hire. The Skycrane is on it's way from Victoria tomorrow, all these casual hire's come under a Section 44 declaration, which gets paid for by state revenue, opposed to RFS budget.
Some of the worst fires I've hit, and still a shortage of air assets. I had the only medium on line from Grose Vale to Kurrajong from Monday to Wednesday, and was pulled from one fire to another at the drop of a hat on 25th. Over Kurrajong when it turned into a firestorm, explosions from the high tension power lines, crowning right through the urban area, I could only hit about 100 yards into the fire, smoke and flames too thick to get through. Pleasing to get back after and see houses that were saved, disappointing to see the ones that just couldn't be saved. Some just shouldn't have gone (30 yards of untouched green grass surrounding a two storey burnt out house, with a pool and 2 water tanks!!), the frustration of trying to turn back a 4 wheel drive intent on driving into the bush to get to his house, through 15 metre high flames. Streets full of sightseeing idiots, in the way of firefighters and residents trying to get out. Sheer frustration of working for 4 hours to hold a containment line, only to have the wind push spotovers across and start all over again. Freight train fires roaring up a hill, trying to get in and put a wet line between the troops on the ground and the flames, ocassional compressor stall banging away as one of the donks starves of oxygen, find a dam and start again.
Day off today, tomorrow and Sunday forecast 35-40C. I can hardly wait.
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Onya John,
Words cannot describe the appreciation we feel for you guys and girls.
From someone out in the field amongst it all and given the opportunity, what is your view of utilising CL415 aircraft if they were at your disposal? Particularly in regards to what you have had to endure thus far?
Thanks again
Words cannot describe the appreciation we feel for you guys and girls.
From someone out in the field amongst it all and given the opportunity, what is your view of utilising CL415 aircraft if they were at your disposal? Particularly in regards to what you have had to endure thus far?
Thanks again
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Also why is fresh (ish) water preferred to seawater - I'm talking about the bombers near Helensburgh used a beachside lagoon which would seem trickier than using the ocean to refill - ?
CL415, C172. Anything would have helped on the 25th!! All alone with fires all around, like throwing pebbles at an elephant. Property protection was the only resort. Long term, FW support in Oz is severely limited by suitable rearming areas. We had two FW allocated yesterday from Camden, grounded due to poor vis, didn't get them all day. We did 12 hours, 200 drops in my BK.
Helitak are the medium and heavy bombers (BK117, Bell 205, 212 and 412, Hueys are becoming prevalent in the Restricted category).
Firebird are light observation helicopters, Bell 206, Squirrel, Hughes 500.
Firescan are f/w equipped with IR scanning gear to plot the fireline, and link the image real time to the ground. NRE Victoria developed and use Firescan, NSW tend toward manual plotting or ARMS, which cinsists of flying the fireline whilst a GPS equipped laptop is used to map the edge, and annotate the active flame.
All a/c have a C/S allocated, and decals on the side (I'm Helitak 83). Works well.
Fresh water is only because of corrosion concerns with the donks. I'll prefer anything big and open, that gives me a chance to get a full Bambi bucket and get airborne. Some little dams are surrounded by obstructions, and a vertical lift becomes a tadge difficult.
[ 27 December 2001: Message edited by: John Eacott ]</p>
Helitak are the medium and heavy bombers (BK117, Bell 205, 212 and 412, Hueys are becoming prevalent in the Restricted category).
Firebird are light observation helicopters, Bell 206, Squirrel, Hughes 500.
Firescan are f/w equipped with IR scanning gear to plot the fireline, and link the image real time to the ground. NRE Victoria developed and use Firescan, NSW tend toward manual plotting or ARMS, which cinsists of flying the fireline whilst a GPS equipped laptop is used to map the edge, and annotate the active flame.
All a/c have a C/S allocated, and decals on the side (I'm Helitak 83). Works well.
Fresh water is only because of corrosion concerns with the donks. I'll prefer anything big and open, that gives me a chance to get a full Bambi bucket and get airborne. Some little dams are surrounded by obstructions, and a vertical lift becomes a tadge difficult.
[ 27 December 2001: Message edited by: John Eacott ]</p>
I heared on the radio , an expert saying ther tree types we have make the water bombers unsuitable. The pine forests in the US where they are used, the trees are triangls shapped, whereas our trees have a dence folage at the top of the tree which the water is anable to penitrate to the forest floor below.
Lord preserve us from Experts. Some of the heavier foliage (eg around the back of Woollongong) is hard to get through, needing a hover drop with the Bambi bucket lowered into the top of the foliage, but most of our gums are not that much of a problem. A 1000 litre drop will knock off as many branches as are in the way <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="wink.gif" border="0">
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John,
Are you back in your machine or the secret red machine.
I would back your comments about the penetration of a bambi load particularly at low speed. In the 1997 fires we IR scanned a line that the Kamov had been used on to clean up hot spots. I think it was dropping about 3-4 tonnes. The fire line looked like someone had been playing golf. The first 80 gallons put out the burning bits then the rest churned up all the ground creating a line of golf dibits along the fire edge. at least you could see the bits that were finished!
It is also the reason for knowing who is below the tree canopy in dense scrub before pickling the load. An 802 operating from Camden on Christmas eve had to shut down as no comms could be established with the ground troops and the system could not come up with alternate target areas. I'm sure another 36 tonnes of foam would have done someone some good. Very disappointing for all involved after a big push to get set up.
Syd.
Are you back in your machine or the secret red machine.
I would back your comments about the penetration of a bambi load particularly at low speed. In the 1997 fires we IR scanned a line that the Kamov had been used on to clean up hot spots. I think it was dropping about 3-4 tonnes. The fire line looked like someone had been playing golf. The first 80 gallons put out the burning bits then the rest churned up all the ground creating a line of golf dibits along the fire edge. at least you could see the bits that were finished!
It is also the reason for knowing who is below the tree canopy in dense scrub before pickling the load. An 802 operating from Camden on Christmas eve had to shut down as no comms could be established with the ground troops and the system could not come up with alternate target areas. I'm sure another 36 tonnes of foam would have done someone some good. Very disappointing for all involved after a big push to get set up.
Syd.
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Im just one of many in the UK, that has seen the horror, within and around the wall of speeding flame. We had a single engine Squirrel and a white BK117, to watch on the television.
So questions for you at the sharp end.
Has a slow release spray from a bucket shown to be more or less effective at fire suppression.
Is the sudden dump of water, just for hotspots.
Are respirators of use, to the pilots in the updraft of smoke.Are IFR only pilots allowed to operate where visual referance may be lost.
In the remote areas, is water drawn up from deep wells; are tankers the only means of supply.
Best wishes from England
So questions for you at the sharp end.
Has a slow release spray from a bucket shown to be more or less effective at fire suppression.
Is the sudden dump of water, just for hotspots.
Are respirators of use, to the pilots in the updraft of smoke.Are IFR only pilots allowed to operate where visual referance may be lost.
In the remote areas, is water drawn up from deep wells; are tankers the only means of supply.
Best wishes from England
Capt Notar,
The Bambi bucket has no control over the release speed, although the new Tarantula valve allows part loads to be dropped. A hover drop, which you may have seen, puts the load down on one spot, and will be used for smokers, small spotovers, foliage penetration or cooling a hot spot. Other drops can be made at varying speeds and heights to give a greater coverage, eg grass fires or flame lines. If a firesock is added to the Bambi it will aerate the foam mix, and give better and greater suppression.
IFR is not an option.
Smoke masks/respirators are unheard of, you just choke and get on with it.
Water is taken from anywhere available, hopefully with enough room to get out with a good load, and as near as possible to the drop point. Swimming pools look good on TV, but are fraught with danger. Loose backyard furniture, power lines, inatention when the goofers come out, all can spoil your day big time. In remote areas, buoywalls are put in and filled from road tankers. Absolute PITA to use, since they are relatively small, and the bambi is put in usually by reference through the cargo mirror. Akin to threading a needle using a mirror and boxing gloves!
The Bambi bucket has no control over the release speed, although the new Tarantula valve allows part loads to be dropped. A hover drop, which you may have seen, puts the load down on one spot, and will be used for smokers, small spotovers, foliage penetration or cooling a hot spot. Other drops can be made at varying speeds and heights to give a greater coverage, eg grass fires or flame lines. If a firesock is added to the Bambi it will aerate the foam mix, and give better and greater suppression.
IFR is not an option.
Smoke masks/respirators are unheard of, you just choke and get on with it.
Water is taken from anywhere available, hopefully with enough room to get out with a good load, and as near as possible to the drop point. Swimming pools look good on TV, but are fraught with danger. Loose backyard furniture, power lines, inatention when the goofers come out, all can spoil your day big time. In remote areas, buoywalls are put in and filled from road tankers. Absolute PITA to use, since they are relatively small, and the bambi is put in usually by reference through the cargo mirror. Akin to threading a needle using a mirror and boxing gloves!
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Congratulations on a sterling effort put in by all involved in fighting this monster.
Having flogged around up here during the dry (when we have the obligatory burn off which lasts for months), the smoke was bad enough, and not being able to see anything below, even at 100' was scary enough.
To be doing what you are doing in these appalling conditions is inspiring - to say the least.
Having flogged around up here during the dry (when we have the obligatory burn off which lasts for months), the smoke was bad enough, and not being able to see anything below, even at 100' was scary enough.
To be doing what you are doing in these appalling conditions is inspiring - to say the least.
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Hats off to all those involved in the heli fire fighting. Its a quite time here in the UK if any additional pilots are needed to help put a call out on the prune.
Keep your chopper up!.
Keep your chopper up!.
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Thats OK, SSCBD.
Is anybody in a position to list all of the air assest bieng used in the fires.
After the Fixed and rotary wing aircraft, particuarly the ones owned, leased or xhired by the NSW fire board.
Thanks, and keep up the good work all involved.
Is anybody in a position to list all of the air assest bieng used in the fires.
After the Fixed and rotary wing aircraft, particuarly the ones owned, leased or xhired by the NSW fire board.
Thanks, and keep up the good work all involved.