Renamed & Merged: Qantas Severe Engine Damage Over Indonesia
ANCDU:
Perhaps because SIA has both the technical ability and manpower to conform to the AD and QF does not?
QF no longer has the technical ability even to modify a door lock.
shouldn't we also be asking why Singapore Airlines is still flying australians around in aircraft that have a design flaw?
QF no longer has the technical ability even to modify a door lock.
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Sunfish, are you sure you are not letting your oft-quoted antipathy towards QF get the better of you in your recent posts?
I get the feeling that, and if I could be bothered I could probably find a direct quote from you somewhere, that you won't be happy until QF goes the way of your beloved Ansett.
Qantas is being very conservative. IMHO SQ is not and may regret their actions.
I get the feeling that, and if I could be bothered I could probably find a direct quote from you somewhere, that you won't be happy until QF goes the way of your beloved Ansett.
Qantas is being very conservative. IMHO SQ is not and may regret their actions.
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Technical Ability
Sunfish I can assure you Qantas Engineering still has and always will have more technical ability than Singapore Airlines.
I don't have any idea of the differences between the QF and SQ trents but if one trent can blow-up it could happen again.
There again it may never happen again.
That's the gamble an operator takes i guess.
I don't have any idea of the differences between the QF and SQ trents but if one trent can blow-up it could happen again.
There again it may never happen again.
That's the gamble an operator takes i guess.
Capt. Kremin:
1. When QF provides a quality service to ALL Australians that is the wonder of the Airline world, I will dance with joy.
QF22:
2. I sincerely hope for all our sakes that QF Engineering does have that technical capability.
It would appear that RR and QF between them whatever the cause, have not done a particularly good job of explaining their action in this matter.
Sunfish, are you sure you are not letting your oft-quoted antipathy towards QF get the better of you in your recent posts.
Qantas is being very conservative. IMHO SQ is not and may regret their actions.
Qantas is being very conservative. IMHO SQ is not and may regret their actions.
QF22:
Sunfish I can assure you Qantas Engineering still has and always will have more technical ability than Singapore Airlines.
2. I sincerely hope for all our sakes that QF Engineering does have that technical capability.
It would appear that RR and QF between them whatever the cause, have not done a particularly good job of explaining their action in this matter.
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News and analysis ninemsn
Qantas says 14 A380 engines affected
18/11/2010 1:27:02 PM
Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce says up to 14 Rolls Royce engines on the airline's A380s will need to be inspected and potentially replaced.
Rolls Royce had indicated about 40 A380 engines needed to be swapped worldwide, Mr Joyce said.
The airline expects to know within two days how many engines need to be taken off its planes so Rolls Royce can make a modification.
"Rolls Royce are still working through the criteria for which engines need to be changed," Mr Joyce told reporters in Sydney on Thursday.
"We'll have a daily dialogue with Rolls Royce to determine which engines actually need to be taken off.
"We're hoping to understand precisely which engines need to be replaced and therefore we can have a firm timeline for when they will be back in the air, but we are still a few days away from that."
Qantas grounded its six A380s on November 4 after oil caught fire in one of fleet's Rolls Royce Trent 900 engines on a flight over Indonesia.
The fire heated metal parts and caused the motor to disintegrate before the jetliner returned safely to Singapore.
Four days later, the airline said checks had revealed suspicious oil leaks in three engines on three different grounded A380s.
Mr Joyce on Thursday said airline capacity had been reduced by four per cent due to the grounding its A380 fleet.
"We have taken about four to five per cent of capacity off by scaling down the size of aircraft," he said.
"So where A380s were planning to fly we've got 747s. Where 747s were planning to fly, in some parts of the network we've got 330s."
Qantas would seek compensation from Rolls Royce once the A380s were back in the air, Mr Joyce said, although it was still too early to determine the financial impact of having six A380s on the ground.
"The disruptions we're experiencing because we don't have a number of aircraft in the fleet, that is something that once this is all resolved we will have to talk to Rolls about as a consequence," he said
"But we are not even thinking about that yet. We are just thinking about getting the aircraft back into the air."
Rolls Royce had made changes to the design and manufacture of new A380 engines to stop oil leaks, but it had not done so to the engines on the Qantas A380 fleet.
"If this was significant, and was known to be significant, we would have liked to have known about that," Mr Joyce said.
"It doesn't look like it is a significant modification, but it is a modification that has an impact on how the engines are performing and it is a modification that indicates whether you are going to have a problem or not with the engine."
Rolls Royce was responsible for all maintenance on the A380 engines, Mr Joyce said.
He said the modification made by Rolls Royce to the engines on the production line appeared to be an indicator of potential problems.
Normally any modification made by an engine manufacturer would be retrofitted to each engine when it returned to the workshop for routine inspection and maintenance, Mr Joyce said.
"If this incident hadn't occurred, eventually all these engines would have had this modification," he said.
"Now because it is an indicator, we are not taking any risks.
"We're taking the engines off and making sure this modification is in place before the engines are put back on the aircraft."
Qantas is in talks with Airbus to replace some of its existing Rolls Royce engines with new engines from planes still in production on the Airbus assembly line
Qantas says 14 A380 engines affected
18/11/2010 1:27:02 PM
Qantas chief executive Alan Joyce says up to 14 Rolls Royce engines on the airline's A380s will need to be inspected and potentially replaced.
Rolls Royce had indicated about 40 A380 engines needed to be swapped worldwide, Mr Joyce said.
The airline expects to know within two days how many engines need to be taken off its planes so Rolls Royce can make a modification.
"Rolls Royce are still working through the criteria for which engines need to be changed," Mr Joyce told reporters in Sydney on Thursday.
"We'll have a daily dialogue with Rolls Royce to determine which engines actually need to be taken off.
"We're hoping to understand precisely which engines need to be replaced and therefore we can have a firm timeline for when they will be back in the air, but we are still a few days away from that."
Qantas grounded its six A380s on November 4 after oil caught fire in one of fleet's Rolls Royce Trent 900 engines on a flight over Indonesia.
The fire heated metal parts and caused the motor to disintegrate before the jetliner returned safely to Singapore.
Four days later, the airline said checks had revealed suspicious oil leaks in three engines on three different grounded A380s.
Mr Joyce on Thursday said airline capacity had been reduced by four per cent due to the grounding its A380 fleet.
"We have taken about four to five per cent of capacity off by scaling down the size of aircraft," he said.
"So where A380s were planning to fly we've got 747s. Where 747s were planning to fly, in some parts of the network we've got 330s."
Qantas would seek compensation from Rolls Royce once the A380s were back in the air, Mr Joyce said, although it was still too early to determine the financial impact of having six A380s on the ground.
"The disruptions we're experiencing because we don't have a number of aircraft in the fleet, that is something that once this is all resolved we will have to talk to Rolls about as a consequence," he said
"But we are not even thinking about that yet. We are just thinking about getting the aircraft back into the air."
Rolls Royce had made changes to the design and manufacture of new A380 engines to stop oil leaks, but it had not done so to the engines on the Qantas A380 fleet.
"If this was significant, and was known to be significant, we would have liked to have known about that," Mr Joyce said.
"It doesn't look like it is a significant modification, but it is a modification that has an impact on how the engines are performing and it is a modification that indicates whether you are going to have a problem or not with the engine."
Rolls Royce was responsible for all maintenance on the A380 engines, Mr Joyce said.
He said the modification made by Rolls Royce to the engines on the production line appeared to be an indicator of potential problems.
Normally any modification made by an engine manufacturer would be retrofitted to each engine when it returned to the workshop for routine inspection and maintenance, Mr Joyce said.
"If this incident hadn't occurred, eventually all these engines would have had this modification," he said.
"Now because it is an indicator, we are not taking any risks.
"We're taking the engines off and making sure this modification is in place before the engines are put back on the aircraft."
Qantas is in talks with Airbus to replace some of its existing Rolls Royce engines with new engines from planes still in production on the Airbus assembly line
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A380 design problems
A lot of the focus (not surprisingly !) has been on the engine manufacturer (RR). However, there were some issues listed in the comments to the crikey.com article:
Can anyone comment on the accuracy of these issues ? If true I would have thought that the malfunctioning of backup systems would be a serious issue that Airbus would have to address pretty quickly. I don't imagine that the A380s would be grounded (after all, the 737 was allowed to fly after several fatal "rudder hard-over" events), but they seem quite serious to me.
As an OLD electrical engineer who has worked on control system software I know how hard it is to get software right, and I just don't like the way all aircraft (and cars, and phones, and..) are getting way too complicated, so that when something does go wrong the effects are often unpredictable and unexpected.
1 Bus #2 is supposedly automatically powered by Bus #1 in the event of Engine #2 failure – didn’t happen.
2 Buses #3 & #4 will supposedly power Bus #2 in the event that the auto transfer from Bus #1 fails – didn’t happen.
3 After some time the RAT deployed for no apparent reason, locking out (as a load-shedding function) some still functioning services
etc.
2 Buses #3 & #4 will supposedly power Bus #2 in the event that the auto transfer from Bus #1 fails – didn’t happen.
3 After some time the RAT deployed for no apparent reason, locking out (as a load-shedding function) some still functioning services
etc.
As an OLD electrical engineer who has worked on control system software I know how hard it is to get software right, and I just don't like the way all aircraft (and cars, and phones, and..) are getting way too complicated, so that when something does go wrong the effects are often unpredictable and unexpected.
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Ah Ha- the third party Propulsion Provider abrogation defense ............
And yet-
Given that RR has mod'ed engines on the floor of the Airbus Factory and operators have them on wing, 'apparently' and I seem to recall it raised somewhere, that the issue was mentioned/documented by the European Regulator last or earlier this year????
As an Accountable Officer, (or was it said here- that in fact a Mr L Someone?? [ex AN & VA] wears that responsibility?????.....), what does the QF Engineering/QA audit history tell us about this emerging 'Issue' ?????, so as we comply with our responsibilities (at least as I understand them...??) to The Act and in-turn Pax/Shareholders....... Particularly, given it being a new type and engine.
Not being pedantic- but since the 'buy in of significant operational critical functions/responsibilities, don't need to provide' model (be that Training or Aeronautical Systems) was launched in our jurisdiction circa 2000-ish to keep the air fair/fare. Does- 'it broke and it's not my fault' now suffice as compliance with the Regulator?????......., or do the Regulator monitor your preferred supplier of whatever at your expense, so as you can set and forget until a helpful regulatory operative gives you a call???
For the sake of saying it- well done that Crew & training system, a journey that explored new ground on many levels, and more so as further details come to light, I reckon.
Rgds
S28- BE
"If this was significant, and was known to be significant, we would have liked to have known about that," Mr Joyce said.
Rolls Royce was responsible for all maintenance on the A380 engines, Mr Joyce said.
As an Accountable Officer, (or was it said here- that in fact a Mr L Someone?? [ex AN & VA] wears that responsibility?????.....), what does the QF Engineering/QA audit history tell us about this emerging 'Issue' ?????, so as we comply with our responsibilities (at least as I understand them...??) to The Act and in-turn Pax/Shareholders....... Particularly, given it being a new type and engine.
Not being pedantic- but since the 'buy in of significant operational critical functions/responsibilities, don't need to provide' model (be that Training or Aeronautical Systems) was launched in our jurisdiction circa 2000-ish to keep the air fair/fare. Does- 'it broke and it's not my fault' now suffice as compliance with the Regulator?????......., or do the Regulator monitor your preferred supplier of whatever at your expense, so as you can set and forget until a helpful regulatory operative gives you a call???
For the sake of saying it- well done that Crew & training system, a journey that explored new ground on many levels, and more so as further details come to light, I reckon.
Rgds
S28- BE
Last edited by Section28- BE; 18th Nov 2010 at 22:12. Reason: Stuff-Up
Frisby - and if QF keeps performing the way it is, favouring Sydney at the expense of every other State capital, I stand by what I aid.
Even you must understand that for every dollar QF makes it stops Australian industry from making $2.00. that is not in the national interest.
Even you must understand that for every dollar QF makes it stops Australian industry from making $2.00. that is not in the national interest.
After some time the RAT deployed for no apparent reason, locking out (as a load-shedding function) some still functioning services
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Sunfish
Why do you even care what QF does? You have Virgin Blue, Tiger and any number of international airlines, we get the point you hate that Qantas flys from Sydney, build a bridge and fly with someone else. That frees up a seat for a passenger that really appreciates all that is good about Qantas OR better still thats a spare seat for senior executives or staff LOL!
P.S. Your next generation bag tag is in the mail NOT!
Why do you even care what QF does? You have Virgin Blue, Tiger and any number of international airlines, we get the point you hate that Qantas flys from Sydney, build a bridge and fly with someone else. That frees up a seat for a passenger that really appreciates all that is good about Qantas OR better still thats a spare seat for senior executives or staff LOL!
P.S. Your next generation bag tag is in the mail NOT!
Sunfish
Is an incorrect statement. The door locks were modified (I assume you are talking about the Dash8 doors).
QF no longer has the technical ability even to modify a door lock.
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None of the images I've seen show an extended RAT, and thinking about it, I'm pretty sure I did see a picture of the RAT fairing, with the doors closed. Of course, that doesn't mean the aircraft didn't think it was extended.
RMcdonal:
I think I need to make myself clear, QF appears to no longer have the ability to design and certify even a tiny mod to a door lock and instead had to contract it out to "Auto Avia Design" of Bankstown. Don't you keep your own professional aeronautical engineers any more??
Image below from ALEA Fed Sec's post.
yfrog Fullsize - 22424748.jpg
QF no longer has the technical ability even to modify a door lock.
Is an incorrect statement. The door locks were modified (I assume you are talking about the Dash8 doors).
Is an incorrect statement. The door locks were modified (I assume you are talking about the Dash8 doors).
Image below from ALEA Fed Sec's post.
yfrog Fullsize - 22424748.jpg
Hanoi:
There was a time when QF, Ansett and others actually knew what made their aircraft tick, often they knew more than the manufacturer and actually educated them as to the direction they should go.
Of course these days Alan Joyce has said you are just contract drivers of a hired Taxi with no idea what goes on under the hood, you probably don't even own the Taxi. That is self evident from AJ's post blaming Rolls Royce for all problems and saying that QF knew nothing about the engine problems.
Maybe, Hanoi, you should hang out with all the Sudanese taxi drivers waiting at the airport. That is where it would appear that your management wants to put you.
For someone who claims to have an MBA and goes to a yacht club you certainly make some pretty pathetic posts.
Of course these days Alan Joyce has said you are just contract drivers of a hired Taxi with no idea what goes on under the hood, you probably don't even own the Taxi. That is self evident from AJ's post blaming Rolls Royce for all problems and saying that QF knew nothing about the engine problems.
Maybe, Hanoi, you should hang out with all the Sudanese taxi drivers waiting at the airport. That is where it would appear that your management wants to put you.
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Sunfish-
I hear what your saying and feeling- and had a crack myself yesterday on what I feel the "Issues" are in a Reg Compliance sense ........ vis the topic of this thread, but it was probably not relevant.
But, I fear that an Aeronautical/Compliance or Safety Culture vis Section 28 of the Act- has been evolved out of the system from both sides be it Regulator/Operator- to accommodate Worlds Best Practice, so as- all can participate (Gen X, Y or Zed as be your preference) in a field that, like the Sea is Very Unforgiving of Fools.
As you allude, a CAR35 approval in days gone by- was not an issue as the Approvals/Delegations were in-house- and be it to accommodate a seat pack fit/a repair or whatever, you had confidence that you could stand and rely on the work in-house, along with the people- as did the Regulator. Today that's a cost saving not to have that capability and oversight...........
Engine monitoring- and have RR done any up-grades on a Trent???, I would have thought to be CORE BUSINESS- but 'Apparently Not' they were operating in secret- there was once an Operator who missed an AD on pylons on B76......
Rgds & A good weekend to all.
S28- BE
I hear what your saying and feeling- and had a crack myself yesterday on what I feel the "Issues" are in a Reg Compliance sense ........ vis the topic of this thread, but it was probably not relevant.
But, I fear that an Aeronautical/Compliance or Safety Culture vis Section 28 of the Act- has been evolved out of the system from both sides be it Regulator/Operator- to accommodate Worlds Best Practice, so as- all can participate (Gen X, Y or Zed as be your preference) in a field that, like the Sea is Very Unforgiving of Fools.
As you allude, a CAR35 approval in days gone by- was not an issue as the Approvals/Delegations were in-house- and be it to accommodate a seat pack fit/a repair or whatever, you had confidence that you could stand and rely on the work in-house, along with the people- as did the Regulator. Today that's a cost saving not to have that capability and oversight...........
Engine monitoring- and have RR done any up-grades on a Trent???, I would have thought to be CORE BUSINESS- but 'Apparently Not' they were operating in secret- there was once an Operator who missed an AD on pylons on B76......
Rgds & A good weekend to all.
S28- BE
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This just in from the web. Herald Sun 23/11/10
AUSTRALIAN airline Qantas announced today it will resume A380 flights on November 27, with initial flights departing to the UK, Sky News Australia said.
"We are completely comfortable with the operation of the aircraft," chief executive Alan Joyce said in Sydney today.
Mr Joyce said the planes would start flying again from Saturday, November 27.
The carrier's six A380s were grounded earlier this month after a Sydney-bound plane was forced to return to Singapore when one of its engines exploded mid-air.
The planes were grounded on November 4, after QF32 flying from Singapore to Sydney suffered an explosion in one of its four engines over the Indonesian island of Batam.
Qantas engineers then began investigations into all of the Rolls Royce Trent 900 engines on the aircraft.
"We have grounded this fleet for 19 days ... to make sure we are fully comfortable before putting them back in the air," Mr Joyce said.
Mr Joyce said Qantas would have four of the A380s operating by Christmas.
The first flight will be QF31, an A380 due to fly from Sydney to London via Singapore on Saturday, November 27.
The aircraft for that service will be transported to Sydney on a ferry flight from Los Angeles.
A second aircraft is expected to depart Los Angeles for Sydney later this week.
Initially, Qantas plans to operate a single A380 on routes between Australia and the United Kingdom.
As more of the fleet returns, Qantas will assess when and how best to deploy them.
"In line with its conservative approach to operational safety, Qantas is voluntarily suspending A380 services on routes that regularly require use of maximum certified engine thrust, and will do so until further operational experience is gained or possible additional changes are made to engines," it said in a statement.
"This is an operational decision by Qantas and pilots still have access to maximum certified thrust if they require it during flight.
"It is not a manufacturer's directive."
Qantas also said its A380 engines remained subject to a European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) airworthiness directive issued on November 11.
The directive mandates that all the Trent 900 engines undergo certain inspections every 20 flying cycles.
Qantas says it will comply with the directive for A380s brought back into service and for new aircraft entering its fleet.
The airline plans to take delivery of two more A380s by the end of 2010 and another two in early 2011.
Asked if Qantas would seek compensation from Rolls Royce Mr Joyce said: "We will have that dialogue, but now is not the time".
Mr Joyce said Rolls Royce had been "fantastic" during the process to get the fleet back in the air, but he also said the British engine maker was aware of the impact.
Mr Joyce was not ready to put a figure on the likely compensation or cost to the airline from the disruption.
"We have said that our priority continues to be to get all of the aircraft back in the air," he said.
"We are working with Rolls Royce to make sure we have a supply of spare engines to get the other aircraft back into service as quick as possible.
"I want everyone to continue to focus on that, and when the time is appropriate we will have the dialogue with Rolls Royce."
AUSTRALIAN airline Qantas announced today it will resume A380 flights on November 27, with initial flights departing to the UK, Sky News Australia said.
"We are completely comfortable with the operation of the aircraft," chief executive Alan Joyce said in Sydney today.
Mr Joyce said the planes would start flying again from Saturday, November 27.
The carrier's six A380s were grounded earlier this month after a Sydney-bound plane was forced to return to Singapore when one of its engines exploded mid-air.
The planes were grounded on November 4, after QF32 flying from Singapore to Sydney suffered an explosion in one of its four engines over the Indonesian island of Batam.
Qantas engineers then began investigations into all of the Rolls Royce Trent 900 engines on the aircraft.
"We have grounded this fleet for 19 days ... to make sure we are fully comfortable before putting them back in the air," Mr Joyce said.
Mr Joyce said Qantas would have four of the A380s operating by Christmas.
The first flight will be QF31, an A380 due to fly from Sydney to London via Singapore on Saturday, November 27.
The aircraft for that service will be transported to Sydney on a ferry flight from Los Angeles.
A second aircraft is expected to depart Los Angeles for Sydney later this week.
Initially, Qantas plans to operate a single A380 on routes between Australia and the United Kingdom.
As more of the fleet returns, Qantas will assess when and how best to deploy them.
"In line with its conservative approach to operational safety, Qantas is voluntarily suspending A380 services on routes that regularly require use of maximum certified engine thrust, and will do so until further operational experience is gained or possible additional changes are made to engines," it said in a statement.
"This is an operational decision by Qantas and pilots still have access to maximum certified thrust if they require it during flight.
"It is not a manufacturer's directive."
Qantas also said its A380 engines remained subject to a European Aviation Safety Agency (EASA) airworthiness directive issued on November 11.
The directive mandates that all the Trent 900 engines undergo certain inspections every 20 flying cycles.
Qantas says it will comply with the directive for A380s brought back into service and for new aircraft entering its fleet.
The airline plans to take delivery of two more A380s by the end of 2010 and another two in early 2011.
Asked if Qantas would seek compensation from Rolls Royce Mr Joyce said: "We will have that dialogue, but now is not the time".
Mr Joyce said Rolls Royce had been "fantastic" during the process to get the fleet back in the air, but he also said the British engine maker was aware of the impact.
Mr Joyce was not ready to put a figure on the likely compensation or cost to the airline from the disruption.
"We have said that our priority continues to be to get all of the aircraft back in the air," he said.
"We are working with Rolls Royce to make sure we have a supply of spare engines to get the other aircraft back into service as quick as possible.
"I want everyone to continue to focus on that, and when the time is appropriate we will have the dialogue with Rolls Royce."