Airline Pilots: Is Anybody Interested in Being One? (AVWEB)

[SgtBundy]

I work in IT, and I notice that a number of pilots on here seem to want to drop flying and move into that. Thing is for either job you are going to have to start at the bottom regardless of what you have done before. Sure the conditions might be a bit better in IT as a grunt tech support in Sydney rather than living in a tin shed in north WA, but either way you won't do the high paying or more technical roles until you have the experience and skills to show you can do it (or, know a mate - the universal progression method).

I would love to be flying instead - my work has gotten fairly flat now and upwards progression is limited for my skills, and I have no interest in management. For flying I am not interested in airlines as I feel I would be happier with more hands on flying (stary eyes and all that) - Ag flying appeals to me but I know that is a long road. From what I can see airlines would be the only way I could get parity with my current wages, but as above, that is for 12 years of highly specialised experience.

I don't mind taking a pay cut, but the single engine rates are just not practical with a wife, kids and mortgage in tow, and being tied to Sydney at the moment limits options even more so. My wife is going into teaching so at some point we might be in western NSW. If we can make up the shortfall that might be my opportunity but I am not holding my breath.

I would hope having a bit of maturity, experience (even non-aviation) and being settled with kids would overcome some of the issues highlighted in the article. I dont know, would an operator be more willing to trust a 32 year old making their way up with a family to build some hours with them vs an 18 year old indestructible?

[eocvictim]

National Average salary is $71,500, it will be 100k in less than 8 years. How much do you think you'd earn in an airline today and where do you think that'll be in 8 years? Maybe you need to look at where the states are, then think about it.

There are far more average joe notallent's per capita in IT, trades or the public sector earning at or above the national average than there are pilots. Not to mention these guys wages are going up, not down, work 9-5 (8-4, hell 7-5 and it's still better than most pilots hours!) have weekends off, public holidays off and even have the choice to spend christmas with family (if they can put up with them). Sure there are still roughly 50% earning less than $71,500 but are they of the same resolve as people willing to work as hard at their career and sacrifice as much as those who become pilots/IT experts/tradies/lawyers/doctors/etc.

This is why they are struggling to find reasonable pilots, other than those who have a passion for aviation, the capable people with the resolve also have the intelligence to do their research and weigh up the pros and cons.

Hopefully for those of us who have that passion it results in serious shortage in the top middle, ala eu 20 years ago

[Trojan1981]

I agree Eco,

I did it, decided after 12 months that it wasn't worth it, and am currently changing careers. One senior executive friend of mine called becoming a commercial pilot "financially retarded", and while I don't regret doing it (as it was a lifelong dream fulfilled) I would never again hang my hat on a career in the industry. There are jobs galore, I got every job I applied for and must have knocked back about half a dozen since I decided to give it away. Problem is they all expect you to work in the middle of nowhere for nothing. Also, unless your doing some really cool flying or derive some sense of satisfaction and purpose from you work, it gets boring after 500-odd commercial hours.

[Much Ado]

Before anyone gets too carried away with how pathetic pilot wages are compared to the 'average' wage in Australia they should read this...

What is the typical Australian’s income? « We are all dead.

[Trojan1981]

Good article Much Ado.

The fact remains, however, that very few people who spend $70k of their own money training for a job in another industry would end up earning so little. I never qualified for the low income tax offset until I became a pilot (well, maybe when I worked at Maccas!). Even as a Train guard I made approximately $75k.

[SgtBundy]

I can't think of any other industry where the is such an outlay to meet the bare minimums. If you do Uni or TAFE you can get HECS or Ausstudy (or whatever they are now) to cover your education costs, while you work on the side to meet your living costs.

I know there are some degrees which have a flying component to them, but it wasn't clear to me that the flying costs were covered - some seemed to imply they were part of the course as long as you did them at their flying school at exorbitant rates, and many things were out of pocket anyway.

I suppose until there is a "skills shortage" or some political imperative to have a HECS like structure for funding pilot training, its always going to have that financial speedhump to entry.

[Much Ado]

HECS is still a debt you have to pay off.

Whats the cost of a Law degree these days - let alone the 5 years at Uni?

Not all Lawyers end up on, let alone start on, hugh money you know - the vast majority finish Law school and get a job proof reading contracts all day every day...or other repetitive, mind numbing, menial jobs.

All this thread proves, yet again, is the unrealistic expectations many young people have. You wanna make big money straight off the bat - well go to the mines and clean ****houses - aviation won't miss you.

[SgtBundy]

It is still a debt, but it is essentially interest free and you pay it off once you start earning. It allows you to get on with the training rather than decide if you want to eat or pay for your next hour. Its not about the money you get on completion, its about being able to do the training in the same way you can any other occupation.

[mcgrath50]

I think I worked out my flight training, which I did over two years, cost the same as my friends medical qualifications over something like 8 years. And yes, doctors don't start on much but they have had the large expense spread over a longer period of time making it easier to manage.

[neville_nobody]

Not to mention guarenteed employment for life. Most pilots will have to retire around 60ish with no guarentee of anything. Doctors will never have to worry about being unemployed.

[Gligg]

I'm not against levelling the playing field economically, but we only have to look to NZ to see how HECS funding for flight training would likely play out in Oz. Large initial uptake, followed by an already flooded market turning into a tsunami, followed by wide scale debt defaults, followed by the goverment spending taxpayers money for hearings on whether it was a good idea to begin with.

[Chimbu chuckles]

I'm not against levelling the playing field economically

Well you probably should be.

HECS would have an additional outcome to those you outline - the cost of flying training would go UP substantially...as has happened to every UNI course you can think of from Arithmetic to Zoology.

There are few enough barriers to entry in this industry as it is - the last thing we need is 'free' Govt money flooding the industry with minimally talented, dreamers. And People who come on here and whine 'I have dreamed of being a pilot since forever but, gee, the starting pay aint great and I am wondering whether I'd be better off driving dump trucks in the Kimberly' are just that - dreamers.

You can't whine about low pay on the one hand - and usually from a position of ignorance as per the link provided by MA - and then bleat that pilot training should HECS subsidised on the other.

The ONLY people we want behind the controls are people who couldn't even BEGIN to imagine doing anything else.

Those of lesser dedication merely block up the system. Make it easy for the weaklings and you just raise the costs for the truly dedicated and talented.

[Gligg]

True, Chimbu, I should be. And I am against HECS coverage - it would be an expensive mistake in Australia. For those with the Dreams AND work ethic but limited means, I am a fan of merit based scholarships however.

[DTE]

Hi All,

I guess the 'for and against' of a career in aviation will continue along the lines of 'heart versus head' for many years to come.

Approached from a purely clinical perspective, the job may not be what it once was and therein lies the deterrent for many would-be pilots. It can call for a huge sacrifice, both personally and financially, without any guarantee of success. And yet, when passion comes into play, logic may well go on leave. Only the individual can really balance out what works for them.

Here are some more thoughts on the topic I wrote a while back. So you want to be a pilot? By Owen Zupp.

Cheers

Owen

[Trojan1981]

Hey Much Ado,

My wife's law degree cost around $38k. In her first year she was salaried at $60k, plus her employer payed for her PLT at the Sydney College of Law (effectively sponsoring her admission as a practicing solicitor).

A career as a pilot can be rewarding for many reasons, and I know I enjoyed my time as a pilot far more than the time I wasted on trains, but financial rewards do not seem to part of the package in Aviation. People should make their move into the industry with their eyes open.

One guy I used to work with told me with a straight face that he got into aviation for the prestige! He had been interviewed for several cadetships and not progressed beyond the first stage. He sat and failed exams multiple times, he could not tell the difference between an Airbus or Boeing aircraft; yet he was adamant that he wanted to be an airline pilot. He didn't even bother to study. Yet he still convinced his parents to fork out $70k on his training. And even after that he couldn't fly for s&$?. I fear that these are the types that remain in the industry when most of the talent goes elsewhere.

I'm not mudslinging or having a go at current pilots at all, but the article seems to support the argument that if you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

[j3pipercub]

Awesome, thanks Trojan. Not having a go or mudslinging, but...

You sound like a little whinger that wouldn't do the hard yards that everyone (who isn't a cadet or a rare exception) has had to in the first few years. Sounds like you didn't do the homework that you're telling everyone else to with regards to wages and open eyes.

Also, unless your doing some really cool flying or derive some sense of satisfaction and purpose from you work, it gets boring after 500-odd commercial hours.

Gold, you'd know this how?

Problem is they all expect you to work in the middle of nowhere for nothing.

What? Upset you didn't get offered a command on a Lear out of the Gold Coast straight from flying school?

Ah well, I'll just log off and cry in the corner, wishing I had the talent like you to leave the industry...

j3

[Chimbu chuckles]

A mate of mine's son finished his CPL + ATPL subjects and an IR about 3 years ago. He didn't spend anything like the numbers you see thrown around - 80-100k cadetship/instant gratification BS - something more like 40k (pure guess). He did it over 12-18 mths working a part time job and with a LITTLE help from his father...and obviously living at home with few expenses...just heading out to the local flying school and doing what he could afford each week.

He then got a job out in the Solomons on **** money flying as a Twin Otter Co pilot then Islander command then Twotter command over 2 years or so. Worked his arse off - despite initial low pay he had enough to have a whale of a time, get pissed once a week etc. Loved every minute of it and proved himself to be a very capable pilot.

With somewhere between 2000-2500 hrs, and with a little help from contacts within VB he got an interview.

6 months or so ago he checked to line in the RHS of a VB 737 at 23 years of age. Several months before that when he was initially offered the job with VB his father and I had to talk him into it a little - he was having too much fun in the Islands - now he's having too much fun in Melbourne on a very acceptable wage.

My point?

It is utterly fallacious to damn the job of pilot as not worth the effort and expense involved based on those who pick the most expensive way possible in a effort to avoid getting their hands dirty....or on the whining of those who didn't have what it takes to succeed.

[frigatebird]

Well said, Chuckles, (as usual).
That is the sort of young fellow (lass) we want coming through the system - the ones who enjoy the ride, the ones who WANT to fly, do a good job, and see a bit of how the world works at the same time.
Sounds very similar story to a young fellow whose career I still follow out of interest, because at the time we worked together he had a similar attitude.

[Trojan1981]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion J3, and you're obviously very passionate.

I'm not wingeing, I don't regret a thing and I had a good time. I spoke with many friends before deciding to leave the industry. Most of them were, like me, ex-military and found civil aviation a bit mundane and unsatisfying. That is the main reason why I left and turned down quite a few jobs. I still fly casually for a couple of operators because I still enjoy it, just not as a career.

The majority of people I do know who have gone on to airlines have done so at great expense, and good on them if it makes it happy. But most will never be on par with a professional uni-grad for total earnings minus costs, not even close.

You ask how I know? Because I did it, I thought I made that clear. If you want to say something personal then PM me for contact details and we'll continue off forum.

[tarmac12]

It already is

Hate to spoil the party but flying training is available on Fee help (HECS) and has been for a couple of years. You have to do your training through a University course and it only covers aircraft hire.

Guy who started with us a couple of weeks ago did his training all on fee help. He owes about 60k now.