Hi, all! I'm an A318/319 F.O. in the U.S. & I'm curious whether it's possible to get work rights and a job in Australia. I've read the threads regarding the Rex "pilot shortage" article. That guy sounds like several of the CEOs of U.S. regionals . . . pathetic, really. I'm sure it won't be long 'til we're facing similar challenges here in the U.S. Sadly, I feel that employment challenges will be some of the smaller concerns here in the not too distant future . . . politicians! Several years ago, I researched the possibility of moving to Oz & it seemed like a closed door. My hope is that a 'special' visa might be an option for my family and I. I was hoping for some unfiltered advice & opinion from you guys. Is it possible? How competitive might I be? (7000 total, 1400 turbine PIC, one jet type, 38 years old) What's the ATP conversion like? Would you guys consider me a job-stealing foreigner? How's the pay? Taxes? I'm sure Aussies are no fun to work with, right?
This is great and ill fill you in. Im an Aussi and Im in America because learning how to fly as a civilian in Australia is reserved for kids with very rich dads or the second cousin to GOD. ( Thats how you get a job at Quantas. )
Tried this many years ago the cost for the ATPL in OZ $80,000 and then there was no job , not even bank check hauling or flight instructor, So I came to the states 1/2 the price but still no job at the time..
I was hoping for a conversion in Australia later so here is how it works. You must first undergo a ground school ( about 3 months of work ) or home study.. Then take 14 written exams ( as apposed to 1 in the US )
Then a Type ride ( and obviously some practice ) in the aircraft you are typed in in the states.. All together about $15,000 for the transfer.. This is almost exactly the same to go to Europe. HOWEVER>>>
I spoke to a Virgin Blue guy last year when I was home, he said that VB will only except those who trained from lesson 1 to ATPL in OZ, Quantas will except the transfer but like I said (you have to be GODS second cousin just to get an interview there. Im an Aussi and I have the wright to go home and work there but even I could not afford the expense of this antiquated system.. Thats why you will find about %60 of the Asian pilots are Aussies.. there is no jobs in OZ, However this being said,, now this might change..
Australia might be forced to bring in FAA pilots and give them the wright to fly..Most Aussi kids don't want to borrow $80 grand to learn to fly and see it only pay $30 a year for the next 5 years while they build time.. There doing computers and stuff. There not stupid..
The shortage of pilots is World wide. You and I both know that Regional Airlines in the US are now bringing 300 hours Commercial pilots into right seat of the jets now . Some are just out of college and some don't even let the ink dry on there license before there sitting in that jet seat..
Great for us .. Look.. it might happen but don't wait for a job in OZ , there very slow to catch on here.. When Ansett went under 1/3 of the pilots in OZ went to Asia and never went back.. I wish you luck mate..Im still iin America but plan to go to Asia myself in a few months..
Wow Starskate, that's a pretty bitter post ! And with quite a few errors of fact, too. My Dad wasn't rich, or connected, or a pilot, or any such thing. I paid for my own civilian flight training here in Oz and am happily employed as a pilot.
There are loads of flying jobs in Australia at the moment. In 16 years of flying, I don't ever remember it being like this. For the airlines, you need to talk to them. For GA, the "jobs" link at http://www.afap.org.au will pretty quickly show you that we're short of pilots here.
The CASA ATPL Checklist (go to http://www.casa.gov.au and type Form 747 in the search box) says that the holder of an Overseas ATPL(A) wanting to convert to an Aussie one needs, amongst other things, an Australian ME-CIR (Form 645 from the same website), and passes in CPL and ATPL Law. That's 3 exams, not 14. You'd need a flight test for the ME-CIR, but not the ATPL because in Oz there's currently no flight test for the issue of an ATPL.
Even people doing the full ATPL at the highest profile groundschool here wouldn't spend 3 months there, unless they had to have more than one attempt and went back for a lot more study.
And don't hold your breath waiting for FAA pilots being given the right to fly here. If you've got a Kiwi ATPL you can get TTMRA recognition, but anything else is total fantasy.
Last edited by Unhinged : 18th October 2007 at 00:26.
Reason: stupid spelling mistake
I'm ex-USAF, have chosen a life in the southern hemisphere with my Aussie partner, and just completed a FAA ATP to CASA ATPL conversion. Here’s the scoop…
2 main issues facing an expat pilot wanting to work down under presently:
Immigration: if you want to fly jets with the major players i.e. QANTAS, Virgin Blue, Jet Star you MUST hold Australian Permanent Residency with either a visa, Oz passport, or citizenship (most all the regionals also have a similar requirement). Presently pilots aren’t on the Skilled Occupation List (SOL) but are on the Employer Nomination Scheme Occupation List (ENSOL). The short of this is that Oz won’t just be giving you a visa to come work as a pilot. You’ll either need to get a visa on your own merits (birth, spouse, family) or be nominated by a specific airline employer (QF/VB/J* don’t nominate to my knowledge). If the regionals do go down this road, know your visa is position specific and you just can’t quit one airline to join another - you’ll need a new visa.
Licence Conversion: while it is not the traumatic experience Starskate presents, I wouldn't call it an easy or inexpensive process either. My back ground is USAF, nearly 8 years of world wide heavy flying experience, and I hold numerous jet type ratings on my FAA ATP. In order to convert my licence I was required to pass 3 written exams:
- Instrument Rating Exam (IREX): 3.5 Hour Exam / 70% to Pass
- CPL Flight Rules & Air Law (CLWA): 2.0 Hour Exam / 80% to Pass
- ATPL Air Law (AALW): 1.5 Hour Exam / 80% to Pass
*NOTE: some airlines want credits in ALL ATPL Theory subjects (that’s 7 written tests).
Also unless you have formerly flow in Australia, you will have to do a flight test for the initial issue of a Multi-Engine Command Instrument Rating (MECIR) which is separate from the ATPL. I know it is odd for North Americans, but you can have an ATPL and not be instrument rated in Oz.
The flight test isn’t some quick "All ATPs" course where you show up, get ‘the gouge’ and fly a few quick flights. To get all the NAVAID endorsements on your initial MECIR you will need to fly an ILS / NDB / VOR / RNAV (GNSS) / DGA (DME or GPS Arrival – Aussie procedure) and HOLD, all while doing the usual run of single engine, circling, and missed approaches. I liken it more to a full route check and was expected to fly to another airport, utilize airways, and really know and operate under Australia’s vast expanse of Civil Aviation Regulations and Orders (CARs/CAOs). In my case that equated to a 3 hour flight test and covered 4 different airports to get all the endorsements.
By now I am sure you are wondering what low, low, price all this training will cost me. Here is the breakdown for me.
Cost: (Presently .89 AUD = 1 USD) Flight Training: usually done in a light twin (BE76 PA44 etc). Costs vary 300-500/hr DUAL depending on region. Unless you are current/proficient in light twin, single pilot, IFR expect about 10 hours of flight time including your flight test: 4000 / 3600
*Note: I have heard of the initial MECIR being done in your usual type (A320 B737 etc) by finding an approved testing officer (ATO) and booking sim time. It avoids the hassle of relearning a light twin, but cost will vary at the market rate for the sim.
Examiner Fees: 400 / 360
CASA Licensing Fees:
Certificate of Validation (needed for initial flight training): 150 / 135
ATPL Licensing / Ratings / Endorsements Fee: 180 / 162
*Note: In the end all of my FAA ATP type ratings were recognised and listed as endorsements on my CASA ATPL.
CASA Class 1 Medical:
Medical Examiner Fees: 150 / 135
Ophthalmologist: 160 / 144
Blood Work: 40 / 36
CASA Processing Fee: 75 / 68
GRAND TOTAL (TO CONVERT YOUR LICENSE): 6660 AUD or 5995 USD
So now with a visa and licence in hand you can start job hunting in the pilot shortage! Other things to consider are the fact that the Oz aviation scene is closer in relation to the very thorough British/JAA aviation systems. Given that aussie pilots tend to be more theory based, one must recognise that their system is just different and it may not be to your liking. Also Australia is a large supplier of pilots to the world market (Cathay, Emirates, etc) so be fore warned there will be a large amount of pilots chasing the big jobs. The pilot shortage seems to be focused primarily in the regional market where the terms and conditions are generally worse.
Like all things in aviation this is subject to change, but it should give you an idea of the PRESENT system and some of the issues.
The bottom line is that if you are willing to jump through the hoops, you prove to be a good guy, and you don't come with a "well that's not how we do it in America" attitude you will find a job in Oz. I love Australia, their laid back attitude, and their culture but I think it will take more than just a love of kangaroos to keep you going through the entire bureaucratic process some days.
Blue Skies,
MayFly
P.S. After 5 months I still don't have my VISA and am looking to off shore contract work in the interim. PM me if you have specific questions.
Starskate, I hope it was a joke. It wouldn't hurt for the spelling and grammar to be taken a bit more seriously though. This is supposed to be a professional forum.
I'm ex-USAF, have chosen a life in the southern hemisphere with my Aussie, and just completed a FAA ATP to CASA ATPL conversion. Here’s the scoop…
2 main issues facing an expat pilot wanting to work down under presently:
Immigration: if you want to fly jets with the major players i.e. QANTAS, Virgin Blue, Jet Star you MUST hold Australian Permanent Residency with either a visa, Oz passport, or citizenship (most all the regionals also have a similar requirement). Presently pilots aren’t on the Skilled Occupation List (SOL) but are on the Employer Nomination Scheme Occupation List (ENSOL). The short of this is that Oz won’t just be giving you a visa to come work as a pilot. You’ll either need to get a visa on your own merits (birth, spouse, family) or be nominated by a specific airline employer (QF/VB/J* don’t nominate to my knowledge). If the regionals do go down this road, know that this is a position specific visa and you just can’t quit one airline and join another - you’ll need a new visa.
Licence Conversion: while it is not the traumatic experience Starskate presents, I wouldn't call it an easy or inexpensive process either. My back ground is USAF, nearly 8 years of world wide heavy flying experience, and I hold numerous jet type ratings on my FAA ATP. In order to convert my licence I was required to pass 3 written exams:
- Instrument Rating Exam (IREX): 3.5 Hour Exam / 70% to Pass
- CPL Flight Rules & Air Law (CLWA): 2.0 Hour Exam / 80% to Pass
- ATPL Air Law (AALW): 1.5 Hour Exam / 80% to Pass
*NOTE: some airlines want credits in ALL ATPL Theory subjects (that’s 7 written tests).
Also unless you have formerly flow in Australia, you will have to do a flight test for the initial issue of a Multi-Engine Command Instrument Rating (MECIR) which is separate from the ATPL. I know it is odd for North Americans, but you can have an ATPL and not be instrument rated in Oz.
The flight test isn’t some quick "All ATPs" course where you show up, get ‘the gouge’ and fly a few quick flights. To get all the NAVAID endorsements on your initial MECIR you will need to fly an ILS / NDB / VOR / RNAV (GNSS) / DGA (DME or GPS Arrival – Aussie procedure) and HOLD, all while doing the usual run of single engine, circling, and missed approaches. I liken it more to a full route check and was expected to fly to another airport, utilize airways, and really know and operate under Australia’s vast expanse of Civil Aviation Regulations and Orders (CARs/CAOs). In my case that equated to a 3 hour flight test and covered 4 different airports to get all the endorsements.
By now I am sure you are wondering what low, low, price all this training will cost. Here is the breakdown for me...
Cost: (Presently .89 AUD = 1 USD) Flight Training: usually done in a light twin (BE76 PA44 etc). Costs vary 300-500/hr DUAL depending on region. Unless you are current/proficient in light twin, single pilot, IFR expect about 10 hours of flight time including your flight test: 4000 / 3600
*Note: I have heard of the initial MECIR being done in your usual type (A320 B737 etc) by finding an approved testing officer (ATO) and booking sim time. It avoids the hassle of relearning a light twin, but cost will vary at the market rate for the sim.
Examiner Fees: 400 / 360
CASA Licensing Fees:
Certificate of Validation (needed for initial flight training): 150 / 135
ATPL Licensing / Ratings / Endorsements Fee: 180 / 162 *Note: In the end all of my FAA ATP type ratings were recognised and listed as endorsements on my CASA ATPL.
CASA Class 1 Medical:
Medical Examiner Fees: 150 / 135
Ophthalmologist: 160 / 144
Blood Work: 40 / 36
CASA Processing Fee: 75 / 68
So now with a visa and licence in hand you can start job hunting in the pilot shortage! Other things to consider are the fact that the Oz aviation scene is closer in relation to the very thorough British/JAA aviation systems. Given that aussie pilots tend to be more theory based, one must recognise that their system is just different and it may not be to your liking. Also Australia is a large supplier of pilots to the world market (Cathay, Emirates, etc) so be fore warned there will be a large amount of pilots chasing the big jobs. The pilot shortage seems to be focused primarily in the regional market where the terms and conditions are generally worse.
The bottom line is that if you are willing to jump through the hoops, you prove to be a good guy, and you don't come with a "well that's not how we do it in America" attitude you will find a job in Oz. I love Australia, their laid back attitude, and their culture but I think it will take more than just a love of kangaroos to keep you going through the entire bureaucratic process some days.
Blue Skies,
MayFly
P.S. After 5 months I still don't have my VISA and am looking to off shore contract work in the interim. PM me if you have specific questions.
Historically, Americans have been regarded as "Over-paid, over-sexed & over here".
These days, we tend to think that collectively, Americans are a bunch of fukcwits.
Individually, we'll love you.
PS Don't further infect our airwaves with non-standard phraseology & americanism radio calls like 'out of FLXXX fo FLXXX", or "with you on12X.XX" or any other crap ones we haven't heard yet.
PSS Learn how to get 'the pi$$ taken out of you" with grace.
As far as science, technology and organisation goes, Americans are obviously ahead of most nations. Their technology is second to none.
The americans I have met and worked with have been generally very nice people.
But I have to wonder about a nation that has thousands of people locked up, awaiting execution. Idi Amin did that.
For the last couple weeks I've been thinking about doing my CPL in the states and have it converted to CASA CPL since my aussie dollars is currently in a very strong position against USD. That way I can save significant amount of $$$ from the training.
After reading your post I started to realise I might actually end up paying a lot more for the FAA CPL than doing a CASA CPL. Plus the time spend in waiting for the convert process. I really appreciate your quality inputs on the thread and wish you successful with your career progress.
p.s. Is it true as mentioned on this thread that having overseas ATPL converted to CASA ATPL will disadvantage one from getting employ in Australia?
VegasCorndoc. Check the Department of Immigration and Citizenship web site for the 457 Visa and the RSMS scheme as I understand some airline operators in Australia will consider sponsoring experienced overseas pilots.
Both Visas have a rural and regional residential requirement, however the definition of "rural and regional" appears to include most of Australia, including a number of cities. I think you will find REX, M@cair, NJS, Skippers and a number of other airlines are all located in "rural & regional" Australia.
__________________
Tail Wheel
Dunnunda Forum Moderator
I'm sure it won't be long 'til we're facing similar challenges here in the U.S. Sadly, I feel that employment challenges will be some of the smaller concerns here in the not too distant future . . . 
politicians! Several years ago, I researched the possibility of moving to Oz & it seemed like a closed door. My hope is that a 'special' visa might be an option for my family and I. I was hoping for some unfiltered advice & opinion from you guys. Is it possible? How competitive might I be? (7000 total, 1400 turbine PIC, one jet type, 38 years old) What's the ATP conversion like? Would you guys consider me a job-stealing foreigner? How's the pay? Taxes? I'm sure Aussies are no fun to work with, right? 
system.. Thats why you will find about %60 of the Asian pilots are Aussies.. there is no jobs in OZ, However this being said,, now this might change.. 
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