Bye Bye XP?

[mad_jock]

I haven't been to a single airport in the last 6 months over 35 of them which isn't using XP on checkin and gate dispatch also for flight status.

And yes they are all linked to the internet because they use terminal windows to get onto the various databases for check in, load control etc.

[mixture]

I haven't been to a single airport in the last 6 months over 35 of them which isn't using XP on checkin and gate dispatch also for flight status

How many times do I have to repeat myself ?!?

DO NOT compare yourself and your home PC with a large corporation with a large IT department that know what they are doing.

You don't know doodly squat about their network and you don't know doodly squat about their Windows 7/8 migration plans (which I can pretty much assure you they are almost certainly undertaking).

Just stop clinging on to XP.... there is no excuse for home users or small businesses to stay there.

[mad_jock]

with a large corporation with a large IT department that know what they are doing.

Actually I do because I have to get our company link working on them all so have spoken to the IT boys to get it working. Along with the pilot briefing package.

And they have zero upgrade plans because they are terminals that link into servers either a web link or terminal window. The plan is to have a central clone depository on a samba server, if anything happens they will blow another copy down to them using a USB to boot it with a link to the PC's identity. There is no local data stored on the PC.

Anyway we shall see how the netstats get effected after D day I suspect not a lot. Those that have will have already been upgraded those that haven't won't be doing it .

[Andy_P]

How many times do I have to repeat myself ?!?

DO NOT compare yourself and your home PC with a large corporation with a large IT department that know what they are doing.

You don't know doodly squat about their network and you don't know doodly squat about their Windows 7/8 migration plans (which I can pretty much assure you they are almost certainly undertaking).

Just stop clinging on to XP.... there is no excuse for home users or small businesses to stay there.

There is no excuse for business to hang on to XP either, probably moreso than private individuals. To do so is putting your business at an unnecessary risk, and any IT department that suggests otherwise is totally irresponsible, and dare I say ignorant.

[rh200]

J

ust stop clinging on to XP.... there is no excuse for home users or small businesses to stay there.

Well then, I have a question for some advice if you will. Whats the best way to deal with legacy software. Several scenario's, some will only run on 95 or 98, some will sort of run okay on XP on compatability mode. Some won't run on machines higher than XP. Software that is produced by OEM to support equipment and they don't change it much. Software that when installed on the same machines (laptops) don't work well together.

I sort of envisaged a toughbook with a few virtual machines set up with each respective os and OEM diagnostic software on it. Problem is you need it dumb proof for floor personal so its just double click on a icon.

One should not underestimate the amount of secondary legacy software out there that rely's on the old OS

[mad_jock]

any IT department that suggests otherwise is totally irresponsible, and dare I say ignorant.

They more than likely aren't saying that to be honest.

But the accountants are blocking it. They have memory's back to Y2K.

Even if they can hold off paying out the cash for 6 months they see it as good business.

One should not underestimate the amount of secondary legacy software out there that rely's on the old OS

I don't I can think of 4 applications our engineers use that can't be ported onto modern laptops because they rely on the Rs232 port. And upgrading the software costs a 5 figure sum. And they need the internet to fire the data up to the OEM's database. Must go and clone them again actually. 2 of them are NT4 one is win95 and the other 98. Including software upgrades it would cost in the region of 250k to replace them.

[rh200]

I don't I can think of 4 applications our engineers use that can't be ported onto modern laptops because they rely on the Rs232 port.

RS232, If that didn't cause some hassals until the usb 232 converters became half consistent. Though I presume theres some that still won't play the game.

[cattletruck]

I actually see the need for change driven by the move towards 64 bit systems rather than a Windoze deadline. In the next decade we will probably be quite nostalgic about 32 bit systems as we are today about 8 and 16 bit systems.

A good business would deal with the upgrade issue as follows: All infrastructure needs to be life cycle managed including IT infrastructure. Either one pays small amounts in upkeep as they chug along or pays one large amount up front for a clean slate every 5 years or so - if done properly the costs should even out over the life cycle of the infrastructure.

For us personal users the IT budget is significantly smaller and writing off assets that are still working becomes difficult without a tax offset. I have a pressing need for 64 bit computing but I cannot see myself updating my standalone XP computer (not my XP laptop) which has thousands of dollars worth of software on it that all works very well.

I guess there will be many millions of users stuck in that same predicament for some time to come.

[Andy_P]

One should not underestimate the amount of secondary legacy software out there that rely's on the old OS

I don't I can think of 4 applications our engineers use that can't be ported onto modern laptops because they rely on the Rs232 port. And upgrading the software costs a 5 figure sum. And they need the internet to fire the data up to the OEM's database. Must go and clone them again actually. 2 of them are NT4 one is win95 and the other 98. Including software upgrades it would cost in the region of 50k to replace them.

There is a huge problem with this. The people who typically write firmware for embedded systems typically dont understand how high level operating systems work. They are used to writing software that talks directly to hardware as opposed to working with a layer of hardware abstraction. I know, I was the same once. So with win 95 and earlier, you could write software that talked directly with the UART for serial comms, but come Win NT you could no longer do this.

Enter the USB to Serial. First, you cant talk directly to the serial port. Second, there is another layer of abstraction that is the USB part, which essentially simulates a com port.

I have spent a lot of time, rewriting software that was written by hardware engineers so it works with modern OS's. Its not that hard. We have had 20 years now to sort this issue out. The problem being, most industrial hardware is designed to last more than 20 years. Any industrial hardware designed to last that long is not going to be cheap. AT some point, business just has to fork out the money to upgrade software. What annoys me, is most software from that era can be rewritten in a few weeks, it should not cost that much to replace.

[mad_jock]

rh200 don't start about it, its been a bloody nightmare.

I managed to get 4 applications working using usb RS232 port but the others will just not play at all there is a funny interface driver thingy. You can telnet into the device to configure it but as soon as you start mucking around with data downloads it just doesn't work.

if your needing a easy one the old aspire 1's have a proper port

The OEM say send us a PO and we will give you the software that does work we don't support that anymore. Oh and now the licensing is per engine not a company policy single license. OK so that's 46 licenses we will need and that's the cost of a brand new engine. Or I can buy on ebay 3 laptops of exactly the same model. And fire a clone of the original laptop onto them once I give them a new HD. Then one lives at the hangar, one in the fire safe, one at the CAMO's house and one in the bosses basement. Total cost 400 euros versus 250k.

Anyway I recon 4 out of 8 was pretty good. Certainly more that the IT department managed.

AT some point, business just has to fork out the money to upgrade software.

Not unless it breaks, and even if someone already has upgraded it and it costs 5k to upgrade and the old system still works it won't be upgraded.

Thanks Andy for that explanation I was wondering what the hell was going on. First time I came across it was 2 million worth of ATR sitting out the front and everyone ****ting themselves because they couldn't get a Pentium pro win95 machine to boot.

[Andy_P]

Not unless it breaks, and even if someone already has upgraded it and it costs 5k to upgrade and the old system still works it won't be upgraded.

Point is, its now unsupported, so its good as broken... In fact, if you need win 95 to run it, its been broken for a long time now. The longer you delay that upgrade, the harder it becomes. This is one reason I now I insist all our clients upgrade as each new os/dev upgrade occurs. Its much cheaper in the long run that way.

[mad_jock]

Exactly nothing has happened yet in how long?

Can you honestly believe that anyone is going to spend 250k to replace something which works everyday with no problems?

Those laptops will be going with exactly the same software on until the last of the type is turned into razor blades.

The fact is you say its good as broken but the fact is it gets used everyday and it works so until its properly broken akin to the engine compressor is seazed it will be staying on the wing. To be honest if any of the IT guys even attempted to touch them they would get there fingers broken.

[Andy_P]

mad_jock, I see the argument from both sides. I have to deal with it on a regular basis. Trust me, it gets that bad you can no longer find hardware that will run the software you need. People resist, it just makes it harder in the long run. Upgrading and spending money is a sad reality these days, you just have to do it to survive.

[mad_jock]

Thats why i have 3 spares for each essential laptop all fully functional and tested.

And the broken fingers has happened during a discussion about if the device was going to be earth tested.

Well I will have remove it if it doesn`t have a valid safety check.

No you won`t

<snap> as fingers removed from laptop.

Apart from when I actually worked in IT. At no point did they have any control over the computer hardware attached to any equipment that i have used. Some of the equipment the oem has been out of buisness for the last 10 years. Your not going to junk half a mills worth of calibrated engineering test equipment just because it runs only on NT or XP.

[rh200]

Point is, its now unsupported, so its good as broken... In fact, if you need win 95 to run it, its been broken for a long time now. The longer you delay that upgrade, the harder it becomes.

The point is you have equipment that is worth millions of dollars and even more in downtime that is reliant on half baked software made by the OEM to only work on there equipment and will only run on say 95.

Its not a mater of won't upgrade, its can't upgrade. Had this not so long ago, one farsical example up until a couple of years ago still required DOS. Hell being able to use XP on these things would be a god send.

Apart from when I actually worked in IT. At no point did they have any control over the computer hardware attached to any equipment that i have used.

Basically the case in the industry I'm using as an example. The problem we have today is a lot of the IT people these days are more of a ghost stuff and reload packages type people. A lot of the ground level diagnostic software is usually dealt with by one of the ground level end users who has the "nerd" skills to try and sort it.

[Andy_P]

The point is you have equipment that is worth millions of dollars and even more in downtime that is reliant on half baked software made by the OEM to only work on there equipment and will only run on say 95.

Its not a mater of won't upgrade, its can't upgrade. Had this not so long ago, one farsical example up until a couple of years ago still required DOS. Hell being able to use XP on these things would be a god send.

I understand the problem, dont worry! When it comes to commercial gear, its absolutely piss poor that manufacturers dont provide an upgrade path. I see it all the time, and old PLC used in a factory that is 30 years old and the only software is dos based. Factory is running around the clock, so why bother upgrading all the controllers? Down time = lost money, upgrade time = down time. Its hard to justify.

I had one case just recently, software written for DOS. I tried to make it work under XP, gave up and rewrote the software for Win 8. Took me all of 3 days. Lucky for me it was an inhouse product, so I had access to the source code.

Just thought of another example where upgrade to win 7 is a problem.

We have a piece of software that we designed for reporting and tracking of hardware faults on a casino floor using mobile terminals. The casino is doing the Win 7 upgrade thing at the moment, and when they ran out client side software, they discovered they cannot print. So I load it up on win 7, sure enough when you hit the print button, it no longer shows the print dialog box. So reading around, this is because MS has upgraded the print dialog box in the API to use the new Win 7 look and feel. To make it work is simple, you just have to tell windows to use the old interface. Easy fix, and we roll out a new version of software. Imagine this was a large software package used for commercial environment like a bank, not so easy to fix.

[mixture]

The casino is doing the Win 7 upgrade thing at the moment, and when they ran out client side software, they discovered they cannot print. So I load it up on win 7, sure enough when you hit the print button, it no longer shows the print dialog box.

And what sort of muppets do a production rollout without testing it first ?

Testing print functionality prior to a rollout seems to be a bit of a no-brainer in the scenario you propose !

[rh200]

I had one case just recently, software written for DOS. I tried to make it work under XP, gave up and rewrote the software for Win 8. Took me all of 3 days. Lucky for me it was an inhouse product, so I had access to the source code.

Yep, if you got the skills and the source code, at least your up the creek with something that can be used as a paddle.

[mad_jock]

And what sort of muppets do a production rollout without testing it first ?

Every roll out I did had something similar come up and some of those rollouts were designed and built by the likes of ICL in there day. Who I presume knew what they were doing.

Floor walking was a nightmare there was applications coming out of the woodwork that had never been heard of before never mind made into deployment packages.

And the day that they took the SNA gateway down to the mainframe was just bizarre. The amount of crap that was routed through that thing which nobody seemed to have a clue that it was going through there was unbelievable. Client IT was pooing themselves because some major stuff was off line and was wanting it put back. The drop down that night was pretty much irreversible because it had taken 2 weeks to write the scripts we had run the previous night to reconfigure everything. Plus the cisco guru had buggered off after working 24hours and wasn't answering his phone.

And yes we had spent 3 weeks testing with what we thought was the deployed spec.

I was Unix, Micro****e and amateur level routers/networks , we had a sprinkling of netware skills as well. The phrase of the day was "how bizarre"

Linked to my personal one of "which idiot moved the switch night to Tuesday instead of Thursday like I had planned for?" this was due to everyone being on flexi time and usually disappeared at Friday lunch. So my thinking was mayhem for 6 hours then get a snag list which we could sort Friday afternoon, sat and sunday. But o no that was over ruled for some reason which I never found out why.

Anyway the life of the contractor. If you don't want to listen that's up to you I get paid whatever happens and I don't have to live with the consequences.

[OFSO]

OFSO is back in town, and riding the UBUNTU wave on his new PC. Three OSs installed, UBUNTU, MINT, and on a separate disc theres....no, I better not say.