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Canada The great white north. A BIG country with few people and LOTS of aviation.

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Old 11th Sep 2017, 18:50   #21 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
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Originally Posted by BluSdUp View Post
I worked at NATO HQ at SACLANT REPEUR in mid 80
Yes, I'm sure you did a fine job there keeping the latrines clean and the floors polished.

Tell us again how the US feared Canada was going to "go communist". Bwah ha ha, I just love that one.

Quote:
It is the most odd program cancellation in military history.
There's nothing odd about it. Canada did not, and does not, need a manned supersonic interceptor, and cancelling the program was the correct decision, one which cost Dief the Chief dearly.

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please do not call anyone a fool, OK!
Here's lookin' at you, kid!
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Old 11th Sep 2017, 19:09   #22 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by BluSdUp View Post
If you are of the coast of Newfoundland in you missile boomer you have company...One thing fore sure, you would never get in a position to fire anything.
You'll forgive me if I don't share your confidence in NATO's anti-submarine capability. Anyway, you didn't answer my question. How would a supersonic interceptor protect Canada from an attack by nuclear missiles? Never mind, we both know the answer.

You can argue the program should have continued for the purpose of exporting the aircraft, and that argument has some validity. But you cannot argue the Arrow was needed for the defence of Canada in the nuclear age.
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Old 11th Sep 2017, 20:37   #23 (permalink)
 
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Zomby

Who needs an enemy with friends like You!
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Old 12th Sep 2017, 02:38   #24 (permalink)
 
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Zombywoof, thank you for mistaking me for a well researched and published author. A very nice compliment. But why precede it with name calling? Tsk, tsk.

You have me confused and curious about something. If no one had bombers, why did the Soviet Union keep so many of their Bears flying? Why did they develop the Blackjack? Why, for that matter, does the US maintain a sizeable fleet of B-52's and a smaller number of B-1 and B-2 bombers? All of them armed with nuclear weapons throughout the late 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's? Why, even today these bombers still have nuclear bombs available to use. Or, are they all hoaxes like... I don't know... the moon landing or the pyramids?

Looks like Wikipedia needs you to amend this page for them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_triad
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Old 12th Sep 2017, 02:41   #25 (permalink)
 
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BluSDUp, I'm glad you enjoyed the video. I found it very interesting.
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Old 12th Sep 2017, 04:33   #26 (permalink)
 
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The Arrow replacements weren't subsonic (F101, F104). We used to call the Bomarc the "Civil Service" because it won't work and you can't fire it.

After an excellent landing etc...
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Old 12th Sep 2017, 07:06   #27 (permalink)
 
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This find is amazing news. Are they going to bring it up and restore it or ??

It is a huge coincidence, just a few days ago I was complaining to a friend about how badly Canada screwed itself by cancelling the Arrow program. I've always been really bitter about that whole deal.

I hope someday that Canada can build another aircraft of the Arrow caliber. That thing probably would have been serving well into the 90's or 2000's.
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Old 15th Sep 2017, 07:20   #28 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Mostly Harmless View Post
why did the Soviet Union keep so many of their Bears flying? Why did they develop the Blackjack? Why, for that matter, does the US maintain a sizeable fleet of B-52's and a smaller number of B-1 and B-2 bombers?
These are kept operational in case a massive attack using conventional weapons becomes necessary.

Would you say there is a credible threat of an attack on Canada using conventional weapons?
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Old 15th Sep 2017, 12:29   #29 (permalink)
 
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But you cannot argue the Arrow was needed for the defence of Canada in the nuclear age.
As long as the enemy deploys nuclear capable long-range bombers (in the nuclear age), nations are going to (and did) design, build and deploy long-ranger supersonic interceptors. Or is Canada the only nation on your shitlist??? Stop being such a [email protected]
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Old 19th Sep 2017, 17:17   #30 (permalink)
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Good Morning All:

A retired R.C.A.F Colonel and I have shared coffee's over the years on what could have been if it was not for that "failed prairie lawyer" we had the misfortune of having as a Prime Minister during this period.

This morning we reviewed this paper written by Professor Rod Tennyson of the University of Toronto for Aerospace Studies which I found to be a very interesting read.

Avro Arrow.pdf

Avro.arrow.page2.pdf

Avro.arrow.page3.pdf

Avro.arrow.page4.pdf

avro.arrow.page5.pdf
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Old 19th Sep 2017, 18:26   #31 (permalink)
 
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Thanks for sharing that, very interesting!
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Old 20th Sep 2017, 16:10   #32 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Zombywoof View Post
These are kept operational in case a massive attack using conventional weapons becomes necessary.

Would you say there is a credible threat of an attack on Canada using conventional weapons?

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Old 21st Sep 2017, 10:23   #33 (permalink)
 
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Wasn't one of the reasons for cancellation the US abandoning the Sparrow 2 missile (due to it being a technical failure) and the resultant cost burden that fell on Canada to try and bring the weapon system to maturity.


A fast shiny plane that can't shoot anything down is not real useful...
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Old 21st Sep 2017, 16:56   #34 (permalink)
 
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There is a book by Peter Zuuring called the Arrow Scrapbook; the book contains lots of memos, letters, comments, between the Air Force(the customer), and Avro.
After reading this, you'll come away with a very different reason for cancelling the project.
The official reason may not be the actual reason.
Cheers
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Old 24th Sep 2017, 13:35   #35 (permalink)
 
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Weapons?

I am going to dig out the book: There never was an Arrow.
Highly recommended.
Also getting the Arrow Scrapbook.

Can anyone remember if the Arrow had machine guns?
That was the big problem with the initial Phantom , no bullets. just missiles in Nam, not so great against the MIG in dogfights.

Anyway, if the Sparrow was not ready I am sure the good people at Avro had plan B with other missiles for the Great shiny jet.

That bomb bay could facilitate a huge load, never mind wing mounted stuff.

It was a great platform and had huge potential.

Hope they recover and display the test scale models so the young Canadians can realize what Canada had , and still have.

Remember Bombardier has a great potential in the civilian sector.

There is a reason Boeing is aggressive .
Do not let history repeat itself , hedge around them.

Do not let local politics sink another great Canadian product.

Off flying the old 737.
regards
Cpt B
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Old 7th Oct 2017, 15:36   #36 (permalink)


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You guys should look at a 4 volume book "Destruction of a Dream" by Marc-Andrť Valiquette.

It is a very comprehensive collection of pictures, documents, and analysis of what was happening at a time and what ultimately happened.


Google it, I canít post a link. Itís availabel at
aviationworld dot net
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