Career advice please!
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Career advice please!
Fellow aviators! Thanks for taking the time to read. My current situation is thus:
I work part time / full time in the summers as a flight instructor, I also work another job.. Well call this the "put food on my table job"
Problem is, this situation makes me feel like a one legged man in an ass kicking contest. I'm constantly juggling both jobs to make things work, and while full time instructors are getting 40-50 flying he's a month.. I'm closer to 20-30.. And I'm working way more for it!
Does this make sense? I'm starting to feel not so much..
Instead of spinning like a hamster in my wheel I could chose to buy time.. This is relatively easy for me as overtime is like taking candy from a baby at my other job.. And I draw a respectable wage there where a ten hr overtime shift is more cost effective than flying for three days at the flying club working as an instructor.
Doing it this way, gives me way more quality of life, and shortens my time to get to the next step at the expense of money. They say time is money.. In this case I value my time more.. The longer I take to move to the next level, the longer it will take to get to my ultimate goal.
Questions are .. Will this be a bad move? Is this going to a waisted exercise when I apply to my next employer and they see I paid to build some of my pic time? If it's of no consequence.. What time should I set on building? single PIC? Multi PIC? My ultimate goal is to break into the airline or corporate flying world.
Thoughts and suggestions appreciated!
Cheers,
Chad
TT 650 PIC 335
I work part time / full time in the summers as a flight instructor, I also work another job.. Well call this the "put food on my table job"
Problem is, this situation makes me feel like a one legged man in an ass kicking contest. I'm constantly juggling both jobs to make things work, and while full time instructors are getting 40-50 flying he's a month.. I'm closer to 20-30.. And I'm working way more for it!
Does this make sense? I'm starting to feel not so much..
Instead of spinning like a hamster in my wheel I could chose to buy time.. This is relatively easy for me as overtime is like taking candy from a baby at my other job.. And I draw a respectable wage there where a ten hr overtime shift is more cost effective than flying for three days at the flying club working as an instructor.
Doing it this way, gives me way more quality of life, and shortens my time to get to the next step at the expense of money. They say time is money.. In this case I value my time more.. The longer I take to move to the next level, the longer it will take to get to my ultimate goal.
Questions are .. Will this be a bad move? Is this going to a waisted exercise when I apply to my next employer and they see I paid to build some of my pic time? If it's of no consequence.. What time should I set on building? single PIC? Multi PIC? My ultimate goal is to break into the airline or corporate flying world.
Thoughts and suggestions appreciated!
Cheers,
Chad
TT 650 PIC 335
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Go for multi pic if you can find a private guy that will rent one out to you. I was in a similar boat to you when I started out, I bought a multi aircraft and flew it around and eventually got a job with the guy who sold it to me. Then I sold the plane.
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You will be able to clock up the P1 hrs part of the ATPL requirement as an instructor, so what I did was to get a Multi QFI rating and the hrs required to do that would be worth paying for. Also make sure you get the ATPL writtens done some time and it also looks good if you can get to instruct for a school with a good reputation.
If you want to work overseas, think about getting an FAA ATP, the written exams are fairly easy if you do a few weeks with an online program (Or buy the big books from Sporties), then the CTP course costs about 5K usd and the actual twin ATP training and test a few grand more (You will need a CAA letter of verification for your CPL/IR/Multi prior to the ATP flight test).
There seems to be more of a need for pilots in the US than the EU at present and that is resulting in more openings for pilots with FAA licenses overseas, some of the big players like United have even removed the "Must hold a US passport or green card" comment from the pilot hiring part of their web sites. Some lesser known airlines have also been paying for the ATP training and type ratings. SO DON'T RUSH INTO SOME SILLY P2F or P2Type scheme!
PS: As far as I can tell the general plan of the US airlines in pilot hiring terms is to stick to home grown until they have to increase the pay rates, then resort to hiring overseas before trying to recruit directly from the flight schools. Unlike the EU airlines they will try and avoid that option.
PPS: Not wishing to hijack this thread, but one question I have is, how do pilots in the EU get multi crew time, as the EASA ATPL requires 500 hrs of multi crew time, whereas the FAA ATP requires 500 hrs of cross country time, as part of the 1500 hrs total, as I never seem to see adverts for twin turboprops in need of a CPL/IR co-pilot ??
If you want to work overseas, think about getting an FAA ATP, the written exams are fairly easy if you do a few weeks with an online program (Or buy the big books from Sporties), then the CTP course costs about 5K usd and the actual twin ATP training and test a few grand more (You will need a CAA letter of verification for your CPL/IR/Multi prior to the ATP flight test).
There seems to be more of a need for pilots in the US than the EU at present and that is resulting in more openings for pilots with FAA licenses overseas, some of the big players like United have even removed the "Must hold a US passport or green card" comment from the pilot hiring part of their web sites. Some lesser known airlines have also been paying for the ATP training and type ratings. SO DON'T RUSH INTO SOME SILLY P2F or P2Type scheme!
PS: As far as I can tell the general plan of the US airlines in pilot hiring terms is to stick to home grown until they have to increase the pay rates, then resort to hiring overseas before trying to recruit directly from the flight schools. Unlike the EU airlines they will try and avoid that option.
PPS: Not wishing to hijack this thread, but one question I have is, how do pilots in the EU get multi crew time, as the EASA ATPL requires 500 hrs of multi crew time, whereas the FAA ATP requires 500 hrs of cross country time, as part of the 1500 hrs total, as I never seem to see adverts for twin turboprops in need of a CPL/IR co-pilot ??
Last edited by skyship007; 8th Aug 2015 at 07:47.
Chadflies,
It's a big country and the needs and wants of the employers vary greatly between regions.
In all my years, I have asked a lot of people how they arrived where they are and no two people have taken the same path successfully... so my advice is going to be very, very general.
Contacts are everything in this industry. Meeting and knowing the right people cannot be emphasised enough. I've found a personal relationship outweighs a logbook every-time. Even at the airlines. Look at Air Canada. for the longest of times if you weren't related to someone who worked there, you didn't get in.
How do you make contacts? Usually by working with them. While it's always good to have ambition, don't always be looking for that next job. You might forget to stop and enjoy the one you have today. It sounds almost silly but, if you don't enjoy where you are, you won't be an enjoyable person to be with. It will show to your co-workers and your students.. and who knows which of them might be the magical connection that gets you to the dream job. I'm just trying to say, enjoy where you are today. The attitude will shine through and help you with where you want to be tomorrow. It will also prevent you from getting bitter and twisted.
Sorry there is no magical formula, and if someone tries to sell you one, don't buy it. Your path will be your own and it will be unique. People are the real secret, not numbers on a page.
Best of luck.
It's a big country and the needs and wants of the employers vary greatly between regions.
In all my years, I have asked a lot of people how they arrived where they are and no two people have taken the same path successfully... so my advice is going to be very, very general.
Contacts are everything in this industry. Meeting and knowing the right people cannot be emphasised enough. I've found a personal relationship outweighs a logbook every-time. Even at the airlines. Look at Air Canada. for the longest of times if you weren't related to someone who worked there, you didn't get in.
How do you make contacts? Usually by working with them. While it's always good to have ambition, don't always be looking for that next job. You might forget to stop and enjoy the one you have today. It sounds almost silly but, if you don't enjoy where you are, you won't be an enjoyable person to be with. It will show to your co-workers and your students.. and who knows which of them might be the magical connection that gets you to the dream job. I'm just trying to say, enjoy where you are today. The attitude will shine through and help you with where you want to be tomorrow. It will also prevent you from getting bitter and twisted.
Sorry there is no magical formula, and if someone tries to sell you one, don't buy it. Your path will be your own and it will be unique. People are the real secret, not numbers on a page.
Best of luck.
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Chadflies,
I couldn't agree more with Mostly Harmless...enjoy the ride. Too many guys I know got to "the ultimate goal" only to hate it a year in because they realize what they were doing in their previous job was a far better position for them.
Remember that for many of us, the dream of flying for "Team Red" or "Team Teal" or a charter outfit was often created by a 6-year old with no sense of the real world. By that I mean all that 6-year old wanted to do was fly 24 hours a day. They didn't think of owning a house, having a family, enjoying time off. They didn't think of things other than flying. That drive carried us all through to our CPL's and ATPL's.
But, after a while in the industry we all come to realize that there is more to life than the dream. Some learn this flying Twin Otters, others learn it flying Boeings and Airbuses.
Ask yourself a question: why do most of us all want to get to the airlines? For the seniority that gets us time off. That's time off away from flying. If that's something you have now, then you've already made it.
I couldn't agree more with Mostly Harmless...enjoy the ride. Too many guys I know got to "the ultimate goal" only to hate it a year in because they realize what they were doing in their previous job was a far better position for them.
Remember that for many of us, the dream of flying for "Team Red" or "Team Teal" or a charter outfit was often created by a 6-year old with no sense of the real world. By that I mean all that 6-year old wanted to do was fly 24 hours a day. They didn't think of owning a house, having a family, enjoying time off. They didn't think of things other than flying. That drive carried us all through to our CPL's and ATPL's.
But, after a while in the industry we all come to realize that there is more to life than the dream. Some learn this flying Twin Otters, others learn it flying Boeings and Airbuses.
Ask yourself a question: why do most of us all want to get to the airlines? For the seniority that gets us time off. That's time off away from flying. If that's something you have now, then you've already made it.
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Thanks Mostly Harmless, and +TSRA
Makes complete sense what your saying.. Getting those connections and enjoying where you are instead of pushing for that ultimate goal all the time.
Trouble for me is, I don't have that balance.. I need to find a way where work doesn't constitute 90% of my waking day.. I love flying, but I'm burning out trying to juggle working two jobs to make that happen.
Maybe the solution lies with taking things a bit slower, and as you say.. Enjoy the experience
Cheers,
Chad
Makes complete sense what your saying.. Getting those connections and enjoying where you are instead of pushing for that ultimate goal all the time.
Trouble for me is, I don't have that balance.. I need to find a way where work doesn't constitute 90% of my waking day.. I love flying, but I'm burning out trying to juggle working two jobs to make that happen.
Maybe the solution lies with taking things a bit slower, and as you say.. Enjoy the experience
Cheers,
Chad
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At 600+ hours I'd be looking for a job in a turboprop where you can start clocking out some serious flight hours and accelerate your progression. 200 hours a year whether you are paying or flight instructing isn't going to get you into an airline any time in the next 10 years...
I'd save my money too... This business sucks enough out of you without throwing more away.
As for the comments on enjoying the ride... everyone does in their own way make the best of it all I'm sure, but you'll enjoy the ride in a well paying airline gig with 18 days off per month a lot more than you will flogging crappy turboprops into crappy towns for crappy operators do hurry up and get a job that will accelerate your journey. .
I'd save my money too... This business sucks enough out of you without throwing more away.
As for the comments on enjoying the ride... everyone does in their own way make the best of it all I'm sure, but you'll enjoy the ride in a well paying airline gig with 18 days off per month a lot more than you will flogging crappy turboprops into crappy towns for crappy operators do hurry up and get a job that will accelerate your journey. .
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Well my first post on PPRUNE since being retired from another site 
-- Chad looking at your posts I need some more information on your personal statis -- are you mobile or do you have a family to think about -- if you are going to plan a career in Canadian aviation there are a few years of hard knocks ahead - having a forced retirement from the "heavy metal"and finding back at my grass roots of aviation I am a little appalled at the state of entry level jobs and how it's stuck in the 70"s and 80's mentality of most small operators with unrealistic bonds and substandard salaries but guys are doing it and progressing - who would ever thought that there would be f/o's in navahoes and PC12's but it's all about that first full time job - instructing my pay a little money but in reality the time is not taken too seriously by "commercial" operators and sadly the time is only good to build up a few hundred hours or to being a full time instructor. To venture out you need the IFR or a float rating (which seems to have less work now) and be prepared to eat craft dinner and canned tuna for at least 2 years but I see guys doing it and progressing and some even winning a small lottery by progressing from a pilot wanta-be to f/o on a heavy turbine in 3 months - but it's dirty and very hard work slugging upwards of 60 thousand pounds of freight on a busy day -- guaranteed you would look back on it and consider it the most fun you ever had in aviation if you are the type with a sense of adventure -- it's tough on relationships and foot loose and fancy free is best - if you already have a wife and family it makes it even tougher - not many companies will allow entry level pilots to rotate or commute and for sure if you could score that schedule likely it would be be on your own skinny dime --
Putting all the doom and gloom aside if you are serious about getting ahead take on the "trial by fire" -- if not get a regular job and instruct on the side to get your aviation fix -- it's been done before and most that have gone that route claim it's for the best.
cheers and good luck
-- Chad looking at your posts I need some more information on your personal statis -- are you mobile or do you have a family to think about -- if you are going to plan a career in Canadian aviation there are a few years of hard knocks ahead - having a forced retirement from the "heavy metal"and finding back at my grass roots of aviation I am a little appalled at the state of entry level jobs and how it's stuck in the 70"s and 80's mentality of most small operators with unrealistic bonds and substandard salaries but guys are doing it and progressing - who would ever thought that there would be f/o's in navahoes and PC12's but it's all about that first full time job - instructing my pay a little money but in reality the time is not taken too seriously by "commercial" operators and sadly the time is only good to build up a few hundred hours or to being a full time instructor. To venture out you need the IFR or a float rating (which seems to have less work now) and be prepared to eat craft dinner and canned tuna for at least 2 years but I see guys doing it and progressing and some even winning a small lottery by progressing from a pilot wanta-be to f/o on a heavy turbine in 3 months - but it's dirty and very hard work slugging upwards of 60 thousand pounds of freight on a busy day -- guaranteed you would look back on it and consider it the most fun you ever had in aviation if you are the type with a sense of adventure -- it's tough on relationships and foot loose and fancy free is best - if you already have a wife and family it makes it even tougher - not many companies will allow entry level pilots to rotate or commute and for sure if you could score that schedule likely it would be be on your own skinny dime -- Putting all the doom and gloom aside if you are serious about getting ahead take on the "trial by fire" -- if not get a regular job and instruct on the side to get your aviation fix -- it's been done before and most that have gone that route claim it's for the best.
cheers and good luck
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Did you try to apply at the regionals or the bush flying jobs at the North? I guess they are paid a bit over flight instructors and fly 50 hours or so a month. The turboprop experience is the golden key to many airlines and I think is way more valuable than the single engine piston experience you will gain as an instructor. Best of luck.
Cheers!
Cheers!
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Thanks altiplano,
I agree, which isint to say I don't enjoy the flying I'm doing now.. I wouldn't be doing it if I hated it.. But there's something to be said about getting realistic traction on your goals
liquid-charlie,
Currently no kids, but I live with my lady /fiancée. The only blessing there is she's a flight attendant, she gets the life and is pretty on board with supporting me.. I'm lucky to have her. I'm mobile and willing.. I have a current Multi IFR, and as I said instructing .. Single piston mostly, so it feels somewhat wasteful to have. My goals would be to build some serious PIC time, or fly my pants off in a twin.. I'd have a hard time getting my mind around a job where I'd only fly 300hrs a year that would necessitate me leaving my good paying job.. I'm willing to work hard and open to anything.
Im currently tossing the idea of heading to Botswana Africa to speed things up.. I've also sent feelers out to my flying buddies to see what's available.. Things in Canada, at least Alberta seem to be slowing up.. But I may have a lead on a medivac gig at some point in the future.. I've also heard good things about an airline called Perimeter in Winnipeg.. Thoughts?
hagop,
I haven't considered the north to be honest.. Everyone tells me I'd need to work the ramp for an undetermined period of time before if get to look inside a plane.. I guess I felt some time building was better than no time up north .. Waiting for a chance to fly..
I agree, which isint to say I don't enjoy the flying I'm doing now.. I wouldn't be doing it if I hated it.. But there's something to be said about getting realistic traction on your goals
liquid-charlie,
Currently no kids, but I live with my lady /fiancée. The only blessing there is she's a flight attendant, she gets the life and is pretty on board with supporting me.. I'm lucky to have her. I'm mobile and willing.. I have a current Multi IFR, and as I said instructing .. Single piston mostly, so it feels somewhat wasteful to have. My goals would be to build some serious PIC time, or fly my pants off in a twin.. I'd have a hard time getting my mind around a job where I'd only fly 300hrs a year that would necessitate me leaving my good paying job.. I'm willing to work hard and open to anything.
Im currently tossing the idea of heading to Botswana Africa to speed things up.. I've also sent feelers out to my flying buddies to see what's available.. Things in Canada, at least Alberta seem to be slowing up.. But I may have a lead on a medivac gig at some point in the future.. I've also heard good things about an airline called Perimeter in Winnipeg.. Thoughts?
hagop,
I haven't considered the north to be honest.. Everyone tells me I'd need to work the ramp for an undetermined period of time before if get to look inside a plane.. I guess I felt some time building was better than no time up north .. Waiting for a chance to fly..
Last edited by Chadflies; 22nd Aug 2015 at 00:48.
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Chadflies,
Saudipc-9 asked the question but you didn't answer . . .
What about visiting your local recruiting centre to hear what they have to say about flying for the Airforce (RCAF)? Better yet go online and visit the recruiting page for the Canadian Armed Forces.
Saudipc-9 asked the question but you didn't answer . . .
What about visiting your local recruiting centre to hear what they have to say about flying for the Airforce (RCAF)? Better yet go online and visit the recruiting page for the Canadian Armed Forces.
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Thanks for more insight -- africa is a tough gig -- I know several people who have done it - from bush flying to working the oil patch. Working for an oil company certainly was lucrative and good benefits - working the bush (caravan) can be haywire and dangerous but the biggest thing for a career is to remember is that when you come back to Canada almost all your peers have progressed and there you are standing without a job and have lost whatever time you have been absent in the Canadian scene.
It's all about seniority and while you come back to Canada with more experience the guys that have taken their lashes are likely looking at getting on a level 1 or 2 carrier and ironically you will be stepping into the job they vacated -- if you plan to branch out and leave canada for good or for at least your aviation career it could be a foot in the door if you want to live in Canada and raise a family here you might be foolish to chase the jobs off shore.
It's also very difficult to be attached to someone working in the same industry - pilots usually spend the first 5 years chasing the iron, if they are lucky, and more time if you are not. Unfortunately most major centres in Canada do not supply many entry level jobs except for instructing - which having come out of an era of career instructors is a bit of an oxymorn for me -- also airline travel benefits do not help in some of these remote areas. Hard decisions but at some point you will need to bite the bullet and possibly be prepared to sell your soul for 2 years -- bonds are a fact of life these days --
It's all about seniority and while you come back to Canada with more experience the guys that have taken their lashes are likely looking at getting on a level 1 or 2 carrier and ironically you will be stepping into the job they vacated -- if you plan to branch out and leave canada for good or for at least your aviation career it could be a foot in the door if you want to live in Canada and raise a family here you might be foolish to chase the jobs off shore.
It's also very difficult to be attached to someone working in the same industry - pilots usually spend the first 5 years chasing the iron, if they are lucky, and more time if you are not. Unfortunately most major centres in Canada do not supply many entry level jobs except for instructing - which having come out of an era of career instructors is a bit of an oxymorn for me -- also airline travel benefits do not help in some of these remote areas. Hard decisions but at some point you will need to bite the bullet and possibly be prepared to sell your soul for 2 years -- bonds are a fact of life these days --
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Maun would be an adventure but why bother beyond that, packed with wannabes from countries that don't have any GA to get a start and conditions are generally poor.
The guys there trying to get a hub would be in Canada if they could be...
We have many avenues for you to start. Stop talking about it on a forum and get or there!
One of the few things I did well in my career was commit... I had nothing to go to if flying didn't work. No fall back. I spent all my money and if it didn't succeef I'd still be a loser sleeping on friend couches...
Cut the umbilical. Commit. There are lots of jobs waiting for a guy like you. Sell out. It's the only way.
The guys there trying to get a hub would be in Canada if they could be...
We have many avenues for you to start. Stop talking about it on a forum and get or there!
One of the few things I did well in my career was commit... I had nothing to go to if flying didn't work. No fall back. I spent all my money and if it didn't succeef I'd still be a loser sleeping on friend couches...
Cut the umbilical. Commit. There are lots of jobs waiting for a guy like you. Sell out. It's the only way.
