2 dead in C-150 crash in Algonquin Park

[rotornut]

Algonquin Park plane crash leaves 2 dead - Canada - CBC News

[engfireleft]

Really Canuck?

[CpnCrunch]

Truth be told, aerobatics in cloud isn't really
a big deal in my family. Never understood the
hoopla.

I guess it's not a big deal as long as you don't digress from the flight line because you get blown off course and can't correct it

[rotornut]

The plane, which had taken off from Buttonville, Ont. was expected to head to Peterborough and Ottawa. And it ends up just south of Algonquin Park?

Two men dead in plane crash in Algonquin Park | CP24.com

[engfireleft]

"Truth be told, aerobatics in cloud isn't really
a big deal in my family. Never understood the
hoopla."

Aircraft maneuvering of any kind whether it's by day VFR or at night in cloud is achievable through training, not family lineage.


"Ever wonder who came up with the all-weather
low-altitude nuclear bomb drop role for the F-104?"

Politicians and military strategists at NATO no doubt.


But what does any of this have to do with losing your way over Algonquin Park at night and running out of gas?

[Dushan]

Originally Posted by rotornut

The plane, which had taken off from Buttonville, Ont. was expected to head to Peterborough and Ottawa. And it ends up just south of Algonquin Park?

Two men dead in plane crash in Algonquin Park | CP24.com

He went all the way to Quebec and was on his way back, via Ottawa.

[evansb]

A press release stated the aircraft had "40 minutes of fuel left". How was this determined? Obviously the investigation will determine where the aircraft was refuelled. It must have been refuelled. Lets hope. Round trip distance from Buttonville to St. Hubert via Peterborough and Ottawa is approximately 536 nautical miles. Your average Cessna 150 has a range of about 365 nautical miles. Or does it? I know, I know, it is time (fuel consumption per hour) NOT distance...

Given the description of the passenger, this was probably not a night cross-country training flight. Or was it?

And then there is gyroscopic precession...

I can speculate all day and all night Marianne...

[9 lives]

Though I don't know what happened, I credit any pilot with the forethought necessary to fuel in Ottawa, for a flight to Toronto, let alone at night. Toronto, Montreal, Ottawa, Toronto is not going to work in a 150, unrefueled.

So presuming the 150 was filled in Montreal or Ottawa they still would have had to spend at least an hour turning circles to run out of fuel at Algonquin park.

To me, that is the failing, let alone at night. On that route, if you get lost, you do not diddle around, you fly south to get to somewhere you recognize, or the shore, then continue west. The decision making was poor for this flight.

Cessna 150s are able to fly to a lot of places they just should not be, particularly at night. A route being possible hardly makes it wise. Ottawa Toronto direct has some very unforgiving terrain. Adding Peterborough as a waypoint helps a little, but really not too much, other than being easy to fine, and wisely reassuring at night.

If you're flying that route in less than ten mile vis, you may as well be flying it IFR. Are you ready to do that?

[lilflyboy262...2]

Where would they have ended up if they forgot to lean it during the cruise?

[9 lives]

Where would they have ended up if they forgot to lean it during the cruise?

With not quite as much of the 45 minute fuel reserve they are required to carry. However, that 4 minute reserve is to be at "normal cruising speed", so certainly, once you realized that you were tight for fuel, you'd slow way back to best endurance power setting, and make the most of what you still carried.

That requires being "ahead" of the plane, and your flight as a whole. I'm not sure that was happening well for this flight....

[clunckdriver]

This crash is a repeat of SO many both in the park and other unpopulated parts of the Canadian Shield, if these folks train for night ratings over Southern Ontario with all its visual clues and lights, then a few miles North of our "population belt" they are confronted with total darkness, as it is over the bush, their training is just not up to it, and this is in clear weather, they have no chance of making it out alive if you toss in low ceilings, rain ,ice and all the other stuff prevelent at this time of the year. training to "follow the Magenta Line" is not whats needed in these parts, I dread to think what it was like in that aircraft on the way down, well done to the Air Canada crew and all the others who did their best to help.

[er340790]

What he said...

All too common in the Everglades too... and on some of those Caribbean islands, taking off VFR over a dark ocean on a moonless night.

Won't be the last.

[engfireleft]

Do flight schools today train people what to do if they get lost? For instance using DR to figure out a rough location based on your previous heading/speed/time from your last known position, then looking at the map to figure out a heading to fly back to some kind of civilization or large unmistakeable landmark. Or using the ADF to head toward a known spot.


Did this lad even have a night rating I wonder?

[clunckdriver]

If TC and the TSB do their jobs there will be many questions asked about the pilots training, experience in "black holes", supervision {if any} checking to see if the aircraft was indeed on "comercial maintenance" {when we owned severall OCs this was a requirment for block time operations, dont know if its still this way} did they recieve weather briefings? were the TMA charts on board? {they did after all, enter the restricted zone over Ottawa} Together these bits of information will I fear, demonstrate the huge holes in our flight training in Canada, a far cry from the BCATP and NATO days when we set the standard for the world, but that all came before TC became a huge non -functioning Civil Service Empire, staffed in many cases, {not all} by those who simply didnt make it in the "real world!".Lets hope this crash doesnt generate another pile of usless "Bumf" like the rest of the stuff cranked out by Government departments these days. A very sad affair indeed.

[pigboat]

Lets hope this crash doesnt generate another pile of usless "Bumf" like the rest of the stuff cranked out by Government departments these days.

Geez clunk, do you still believe in Santa Claus too?

[treykule]

But what does any of this have to do with losing your way over Algonquin Park at night and running out of gas?

Absolutely nothing at all.


The training today, in Canada, is more than just the fault of TC, I think, though your remarks are still relevant.

Instructors, who, for many, are inexperienced themselves, are not being properly trained and supervised. How many FTUs, after hiring an instructor spend any amount of time checking them out to nsure they can teach, or provide additional training? Or provide supervision and monitoring? From my experience not many....read almost none.


I was never a fan of the FAA 141 training with all the multiple stage checks, but more and more I am seeing the wisdom behind that and the published syllabus.


it is a bit sad that we need to rely on a government agency to try and insure FTU management actually manage.

As to this accident..tragic...but all of us pontificating here, I don't think, is going to prevent even one future similar accident. RIP to a fellow aviator

[9 lives]

Many decades ago, when I earned my night rating, nothing in that training left me prepared for the decision making for a long night cross country. It was only some good mentoring, and not so great experience which saw me through decision making for night cross country flights.

In this case, I would wonder if twenty something pilots could have accumulated that experience, unless they had large amounts of night cross country experience. Even so, night flying in the vicinity of Toronto is very different from sparsely settled night flying.

Letting alone the night flying aspects, I wonder if these pilots took along a survival kit appropriate for a force landing in this territory. Ottawa to Toronto is lots of remote flying, unless flown along the shore of the St. Lawrence and Lake Ontario.

[cj75]

I saw the photos and it doesn't look like controlled descent without power. It looks like loss of control and high speed collision with terrain. I think this kind of VFR into IMC (especially at night) accident is just going to keep happening. It's a human error that is pretty hard to fix.

Maybe this poor guy went to a crappy FTU and was never taught about the dangers of VFR into IMC. Maybe he went to a good FTU and was that guy playing around on his phone during the part when the instructor was teaching PDM. Maybe he was taught the dangers but thought the instructor was overcautious and he was better and could "handle it just fine". Maybe the investigation will find out. Best of luck with that.

I seem to think that in commercial operations you need an instrument rating to fly VFR at night with passengers on board.

Please don't fly VFR over unlit terrain at night in lousy weather. Get an instrument rating. Fly IFR.

[treykule]

I dont usually speculate, but in the dark he could have well done a controlled descent until he came to the top of the trees, and flared.
Trying to land on the top of trees, and then stalling and going into the ground is a common day time issue. I think at night it might be even more difficult to try flying through them.

[BeechNut]

Many years ago (about 32 to be exact), with a freshly-minted night rating and well south of a hundred hours total flying experience, I was visiting my girlfriend in Kingston, Ontario, with my trusty C-150. She was working on one of the evenings I was there, so I thought I'd go practice some night touch-and-goes. Took off on 25, and turned over the lake to join the downwind leg. Surprise. No lights or visual references over the lake. I sure got onto the gauges in a hurry.

It was a real eye-opener for me. VFR at night over a built-up area is a different beast compared to VFR at night over blackness. The latter is instrument flying, pure and simple. Fortunately I had a good instructor for my night rating who really put a lot of emphasis on instrument flying, including with partial panel.

Here I am still alive 32 years later (and the girlfriend I was visiting is now my wife of 26 years ), though the C-150 is long gone and I now fly an aerobatic Beech Sundowner (for sale if anyone's interested... PM me).