Flying IFR in Canada Questions
Thread Starter
Flying IFR in Canada Questions
I am an Aussie and haven’t flown in Canada for a number of years, however when I did fly there in my Twin Otter on a Pole-to-Pole around-the-world flight I was told that it was possible to fly in uncontrolled airspace IFR in IMC without filing a flight plan and without paying the enroute service charge. Is this still so?
If flying in G airspace, do you give a call on the 126.7 frequency and then self-separate?
If so, does this save much money in enroute charges and do pilots do this to save money?
Regards
Dick Smith
If flying in G airspace, do you give a call on the 126.7 frequency and then self-separate?
If so, does this save much money in enroute charges and do pilots do this to save money?
Regards
Dick Smith
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I believe that you have to file an IFR flight plan any time you will fly in IFR conditions(or I suppose there is or was the flight note or flight itinerary). You just don't get an IFR clearance in uncontrolled airspace.
Use the airport frequency and 126.7 for broadcasts.
The AIM can be found using google.
Use the airport frequency and 126.7 for broadcasts.
The AIM can be found using google.
Let me google some of that for you Dick.
From TC RAC:
From TC RAC:
4.5 Aircraft Operations — Uncontrolled Aerodromes
4.5.1 General
An uncontrolled aerodrome is an aerodrome without a control tower, or one where the tower is not in operation. There is no substitute for alertness while in the vicinity of an uncontrolled aerodrome. It is essential that pilots be aware of, and look out for, other traffic, and exchange traffic information when approaching or departing from an uncontrolled aerodrome, particularly since some aircraft may not have communication capability. To achieve the greatest degree of safety, it is essential that all radio-equipped aircraft monitor a common designated frequency, such as the published MF or ATF, and follow the reporting procedures specified for use in an MF area, while operating on the manoeuvring area or flying within an MF area surrounding an uncontrolled aerodrome.
• MF area means an area in the vicinity of an uncontrolled aerodrome for which an MF has been designated. The area within which MF procedures apply at a particular aerodrome is defined in the Aerodrome/Facility Directory Section of the CFS, under the heading COMM. Normally, the MF area is a circle with a 5-NM radius capped at 3 000 ft AAE.
At uncontrolled aerodromes without a published MF or ATF, the common frequency for the broadcast of aircraft position and the intentions of pilots flying in the vicinity of that aerodrome is 123.2 MHz.
…
9.13 IFR Procedures at an Uncontrolled Aerodrome in Uncontrolled Airspace
Pilots operating under IFR in uncontrolled airspace should, whenever practical, monitor 126.7 MHz and broadcast their intentions on this frequency immediately prior to changing altitude or commencing an approach. Therefore, when arriving at an aerodrome where another frequency is designated as the MF, descent and approach intentions should be broadcast on 126.7 MHz before changing to the MF. If conflicting IFR traffic becomes evident, this change should be delayed until the conflict is resolved. Once established on the MF, the pilot shall make the reports listed in RAC 9.12 (see RAC 4.5.4 for MF procedures, and RAC 4.5.5 for the use of 123.2 MHz where a UNICOM does not exists).
…
4.5.1 General
An uncontrolled aerodrome is an aerodrome without a control tower, or one where the tower is not in operation. There is no substitute for alertness while in the vicinity of an uncontrolled aerodrome. It is essential that pilots be aware of, and look out for, other traffic, and exchange traffic information when approaching or departing from an uncontrolled aerodrome, particularly since some aircraft may not have communication capability. To achieve the greatest degree of safety, it is essential that all radio-equipped aircraft monitor a common designated frequency, such as the published MF or ATF, and follow the reporting procedures specified for use in an MF area, while operating on the manoeuvring area or flying within an MF area surrounding an uncontrolled aerodrome.
• MF area means an area in the vicinity of an uncontrolled aerodrome for which an MF has been designated. The area within which MF procedures apply at a particular aerodrome is defined in the Aerodrome/Facility Directory Section of the CFS, under the heading COMM. Normally, the MF area is a circle with a 5-NM radius capped at 3 000 ft AAE.
At uncontrolled aerodromes without a published MF or ATF, the common frequency for the broadcast of aircraft position and the intentions of pilots flying in the vicinity of that aerodrome is 123.2 MHz.
…
9.13 IFR Procedures at an Uncontrolled Aerodrome in Uncontrolled Airspace
Pilots operating under IFR in uncontrolled airspace should, whenever practical, monitor 126.7 MHz and broadcast their intentions on this frequency immediately prior to changing altitude or commencing an approach. Therefore, when arriving at an aerodrome where another frequency is designated as the MF, descent and approach intentions should be broadcast on 126.7 MHz before changing to the MF. If conflicting IFR traffic becomes evident, this change should be delayed until the conflict is resolved. Once established on the MF, the pilot shall make the reports listed in RAC 9.12 (see RAC 4.5.4 for MF procedures, and RAC 4.5.5 for the use of 123.2 MHz where a UNICOM does not exists).
…
Thread Starter
Thanks. In aus we pay an en route charge depending on aircraft weight for all IFR flying- in controlled of un controlled airspace.
Do you have a similar charging system in Canada?
Do you have a similar charging system in Canada?
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https://www.navcanada.ca/en/products...e-charges.aspx
You know, I seem to remember being cheated by Dick Smith once...I believe it was on a stereo or something similar. They didn't want to even read their returns policy. Just a big bag of nopes.
You know, I seem to remember being cheated by Dick Smith once...I believe it was on a stereo or something similar. They didn't want to even read their returns policy. Just a big bag of nopes.
Thread Starter
+TRSA. What a nasty piece of work you are!
If you are going to post defamatory comments at least have to guts to use your real name.
I find it doubtful that you have been "cheated" by that company- if that's what you are referring to .
Over the years when people have occasionally contacted me thinking I am involved on checking I have always found they have operated ethically .
Be warned. I suggest you google CarolineTulip.
If you are going to post defamatory comments at least have to guts to use your real name.
I find it doubtful that you have been "cheated" by that company- if that's what you are referring to .
Over the years when people have occasionally contacted me thinking I am involved on checking I have always found they have operated ethically .
Be warned. I suggest you google CarolineTulip.
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Actually, it was the company I was referring. I spent many years working in NZ and I was sold a lemon of a stereo. The store manager didn't want to hear anything about it. I swore to never shop there ever again and took my custom to the likes of Farmers and Noel Leeming.
But thank-you for jumping the gun and assuming it was a character assassination. On a second read I can see how it would be taken that way, but sure let's assume no one knows anything about the other side of the world.
Also, you're welcome for the NavCanada reference that I posted prior to the paragraph to which you refer. Perhaps next time I won't be so quick to help out.
As for my name...I don't use it so that I may post tidbits to help out other forum users by posting from the company manuals I've had the pleasure of using over the years. I'd hate to think that my helping a fellow pilot would get me fired...which it would.
I won't Google CarolineTulip for fear I'll say something defamatory.
But thank-you for jumping the gun and assuming it was a character assassination. On a second read I can see how it would be taken that way, but sure let's assume no one knows anything about the other side of the world.
Also, you're welcome for the NavCanada reference that I posted prior to the paragraph to which you refer. Perhaps next time I won't be so quick to help out.
As for my name...I don't use it so that I may post tidbits to help out other forum users by posting from the company manuals I've had the pleasure of using over the years. I'd hate to think that my helping a fellow pilot would get me fired...which it would.
I won't Google CarolineTulip for fear I'll say something defamatory.
Thread Starter
+TRSa. Thanks for posting the info - I spent about half an hour attempting to work out if IFR are charged an en route fee when flying in un controlled airspace.
Could not work it out!
If anyone knows the answer would love to hear.
Creampuff. - turn of your Dick Smith alert. I'm not worth your time- get a real life mate- lots out there more important than chasing me around the web.
Could not work it out!
If anyone knows the answer would love to hear.
Creampuff. - turn of your Dick Smith alert. I'm not worth your time- get a real life mate- lots out there more important than chasing me around the web.
And for Canuck readers just tuning in who are confused by what is going on, a short background piece.
PPRuNE's Dick Smith founded and used to own, wait for it... a chain of stores called Dick Smith. A downunder equivalent of Radio Shack.
He no longer owns the business, but presumably licenced the use of his name. I always had good service from his store in Brissie, but that was back in the day when he was still a part-owner.
Also, anyone who flew around the world in a helicopter is OK in my book!
A controversial character, who among many other things, has been chairman of CASA:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_S...ntrepreneur%29
EDIT: Hey Dick, I see I'm one post ahead of you, mate!
PPRuNE's Dick Smith founded and used to own, wait for it... a chain of stores called Dick Smith. A downunder equivalent of Radio Shack.
He no longer owns the business, but presumably licenced the use of his name. I always had good service from his store in Brissie, but that was back in the day when he was still a part-owner.
Also, anyone who flew around the world in a helicopter is OK in my book!
A controversial character, who among many other things, has been chairman of CASA:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_S...ntrepreneur%29
EDIT: Hey Dick, I see I'm one post ahead of you, mate!
Thread Starter
Thanks India Actually totally out of Dick Smith Electronics since 1983- some 31 years ago. All informed people know I have no involvement so I get a bit fed up when some twit brings up something completely innacurate and irrellevent to the issue of the thread
Especially when it is done anonymously.
I reckon Canada has some excellent practices which lead the world and I wish to come up to speed again.
One is the potential to enter IMC in class G by simply making an annoucement .
In Australia the pilot must file a full flight plan and this is normally required with enough advance notice so the plan can be entered int the FDP system.
Even in the USA where most IFR is in a minimum of class E controlled airspace there are simple direct procedures for a VFR aircraft to enter IMC under certain circumstances without pre filing a detailed IFR plan.
Any of my success in business has come from looking around the world and copying the best and then incorporating it with what I already do OK.
If that happened in Australian aviation we would become leaders in the world in flight training and recreational aviation- then again not a great idea to mention on the Canadian site as that's what they may want to be -and good on them!
Especially when it is done anonymously.
I reckon Canada has some excellent practices which lead the world and I wish to come up to speed again.
One is the potential to enter IMC in class G by simply making an annoucement .
In Australia the pilot must file a full flight plan and this is normally required with enough advance notice so the plan can be entered int the FDP system.
Even in the USA where most IFR is in a minimum of class E controlled airspace there are simple direct procedures for a VFR aircraft to enter IMC under certain circumstances without pre filing a detailed IFR plan.
Any of my success in business has come from looking around the world and copying the best and then incorporating it with what I already do OK.
If that happened in Australian aviation we would become leaders in the world in flight training and recreational aviation- then again not a great idea to mention on the Canadian site as that's what they may want to be -and good on them!
Last edited by Dick Smith; 9th Sep 2014 at 01:32.
Actually totally out of Dick Smith Electronics since 1983- some 31 years ago
1983 was the year I moved from Brisbane to Indonesia!I used to have a Canadian SE IR and I was really impressed with the practical rules and regs compared to Australia and England. I'm not up to date with current practices, otherwise I would have answered your questions.
I've been following the ongoing CASA saga and the Senate hearings on the Australian forum and I am staggered how things have deteriorated in Australian aviation.
Threatening pilots with criminal charges for minor regulatory mistakes? Suggesting that airline operations departments might reconsider the employment of licenced pilots who have CVD?
Closing down airlines by sending a telex at 5pm on a Friday?
Let's hope the departure of the DAS combined with some brave action by the Minister might actually turn things around.
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Hi Dick, nice to meet you. Generally Canadians are very nice and helpful people, at least in real life.
Anyway, to answer the original questions:
- if you fly IFR entirely in uncontrolled airspace then you just need to file an IFR flight itinerary. See CAR 602.73:
- There are no enroute charges for aircraft less than 3 metric tons. Instead there is an annual fee of between $68 and $227.
http://www.navcanada.ca/EN/media/Pub...Charges-EN.pdf
Anyway, to answer the original questions:
- if you fly IFR entirely in uncontrolled airspace then you just need to file an IFR flight itinerary. See CAR 602.73:
Requirement to File a Flight Plan or a Flight Itinerary
602.73 (1) Subject to subsection (3), no pilot-in-command shall operate an aircraft in IFR flight unless an IFR flight plan has been filed.
(2) No pilot-in-command shall operate an aircraft in VFR flight unless a VFR flight plan or a VFR flight itinerary has been filed, except where the flight is conducted within 25 nautical miles of the departure aerodrome.
(3) A pilot-in-command may file an IFR flight itinerary instead of an IFR flight plan where
(a) the flight is conducted in part or in whole outside controlled airspace; or
(b) facilities are inadequate to permit the communication of flight plan information to an air traffic control unit, a flight service station or a community aerodrome radio station.
(4) Notwithstanding anything in this Division, no pilot-in-command shall, unless a flight plan has been filed, operate an aircraft between Canada and a foreign state.
602.73 (1) Subject to subsection (3), no pilot-in-command shall operate an aircraft in IFR flight unless an IFR flight plan has been filed.
(2) No pilot-in-command shall operate an aircraft in VFR flight unless a VFR flight plan or a VFR flight itinerary has been filed, except where the flight is conducted within 25 nautical miles of the departure aerodrome.
(3) A pilot-in-command may file an IFR flight itinerary instead of an IFR flight plan where
(a) the flight is conducted in part or in whole outside controlled airspace; or
(b) facilities are inadequate to permit the communication of flight plan information to an air traffic control unit, a flight service station or a community aerodrome radio station.
(4) Notwithstanding anything in this Division, no pilot-in-command shall, unless a flight plan has been filed, operate an aircraft between Canada and a foreign state.
http://www.navcanada.ca/EN/media/Pub...Charges-EN.pdf
Last edited by CpnCrunch; 9th Sep 2014 at 02:12.
Thread Starter
Thanks and as I understand it a flight itinerary is different to a flight plan because it can be filed with a family member or company and not with the government -have I got it?
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Thanks and as I understand it a flight itinerary is different to a flight plan because it can be filed with a family member or company and not with the government -have I got it?
CAR 602.75(2): "A flight itinerary shall be filed with a responsible person, an air traffic control unit, a flight service station or a community aerodrome radio station."
A "responsible person" can be anyone. I think the responsible person has to report you missing within 24 hours, but I can't find that in the CARs. It's probably a good idea for your responsible person to report you missing a bit sooner than that though!
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CpnCrunch,
CAR 602.79 - Overdue Aircraft Report.
It does not state that it must be within a 24 hour period, simply that it is to be done so "...immediately, by the quickest means possible."
The way I look at the 24-hour thing is that it comes from an interpretation of 602.77 - Requirement to File an Arrival Report and 602.79. 602.77 states that the PIC who terminates a flight for which a flight itinerary was used and with no SAR time specified must call whomever they filed the itinerary with within 24 hours.
Therefore, because the PIC has 24 hours to call their responsible person, its a given that then the responsible person has 24 hours to call SAR (or the time at which they feel the aircraft is overdue, whichever comes first).
A roundabout way of getting there me thinks.
CAR 602.79 - Overdue Aircraft Report.
It does not state that it must be within a 24 hour period, simply that it is to be done so "...immediately, by the quickest means possible."
The way I look at the 24-hour thing is that it comes from an interpretation of 602.77 - Requirement to File an Arrival Report and 602.79. 602.77 states that the PIC who terminates a flight for which a flight itinerary was used and with no SAR time specified must call whomever they filed the itinerary with within 24 hours.
Therefore, because the PIC has 24 hours to call their responsible person, its a given that then the responsible person has 24 hours to call SAR (or the time at which they feel the aircraft is overdue, whichever comes first).
A roundabout way of getting there me thinks.
Thread Starter
Good on you Canada. Really smart to allow aircraft to enter IMC in un controlled airspace as simply and quickly as possible.
I wonder if Aus will ever copy?
I wonder if Aus will ever copy?
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Dick,
Thanks for posting on the Canadian section of the Pprune forum.
IFR in uncontrolled airspace in Canada can be a very lonely place.
126.7 is where you keep your ears on, and if you hear any unusual mention of a word that does not appear in normal position reports, it probably means that a conversation is going on or about to occur on another frequency, the favorite being 123.45.
While it is simple and easy fly IFR OCTA in Canada, you can also have to endure the endless unnecessary calls of Conflicting Traffic please advise.
What Australia does offer to Canada as far as procedure goes, is language that keeps frequency congestion down, not that there is a lot of in the great white North.
As an ex VK (now XVK) in Canada, I have always appreciated your numerous contributions to aviation safety, not to mention, what is now called, the electronic world.
Thanks for posting on the Canadian section of the Pprune forum.
IFR in uncontrolled airspace in Canada can be a very lonely place.
126.7 is where you keep your ears on, and if you hear any unusual mention of a word that does not appear in normal position reports, it probably means that a conversation is going on or about to occur on another frequency, the favorite being 123.45.
While it is simple and easy fly IFR OCTA in Canada, you can also have to endure the endless unnecessary calls of Conflicting Traffic please advise.
What Australia does offer to Canada as far as procedure goes, is language that keeps frequency congestion down, not that there is a lot of in the great white North.
As an ex VK (now XVK) in Canada, I have always appreciated your numerous contributions to aviation safety, not to mention, what is now called, the electronic world.