Willie.... you are right on the money... great post.
I guess you understood what I wrote as opposed to "aliplano" who thinks that my 33 and your 35 years in the business means that we have no clue!
Aliplano....you are the "ever so enlightened" one...its never easy trying to convince one who has your level of intelligence...or something to this effect. Do you work at Jazz per chance ?
Bunkdog, AC can remove a fleet from their fleet list anytime they want to and then those positions are no longer on the mainline . Those that are senior at AC love to say they will take the hard stand, go ahead I hope it works out for you. But I think in reality big changes are coming and they are not pilot friendly
Keep throwing mud pal, it suits you what you have to offer...
33 years in the business? Then you must know that all guys are trying to do is make the best of what they get dealt.
Throwing shit the way you do shows a complete lack of respect for your inferred position. I don't totally disagree with Willie's views he's got an opinion and he makes a reasonable attempt articulating it. All you can do is dish petty insults and piggy back your ideas as an others' post. One thing you sure got right though is it is never easy trying to convince one who has your level of intelligence...
You have obviously taken a counter-stance with me because I have apparently hit a nerve with you.
I happen to agree with Willie and stated the same, I just tend to be a little more blunt about it. That opinion on which you feel "I don't have a clue", comes from a direct dealings with ACPA and ALPA from years ago. I stand by the fact that you can't use the mainline workforce do the LCC work without it affecting the product being put forth. Eventually the games get played and the service will suffer, its all be seen 100 times from history so why should it be any different there? I think even someone with your intelligence can see that? Why do you have such a problem with that point of view?
One thing is certain. The years of deterioration in Canada's is attributable in part to the lack of cohesion amounts the pilot groups and it just keeps right on going. However I do agree with the fact that the ACPA guys are doing the best with what they have been dealt. From here on anyone can see that the AC management and the Canadian government hold all the cards so if you think things are bad now just wait 10 more years when you see your pension cut buy 25% or disappear altogether.
Enjoy....glad it's not me.
Last edited by The Outlaw; 16th Oct 2012 at 09:07.
Not this time, but what is to say that the deterioration of WAWCON at AC won't eventually affect the lives of all flight crew in Canada? It would be foolish (or arrogant) to think that it won't, and that is reason enough to stop sniping and start supporting our colleagues when they face these challenges.
Trying to get pilots to be collective on most issues is impossible at the best of times and a fallacy at the worst, pilots might do well to look at how the boys at the TTC do so well.
I appreciate your comments about it being arrogant to believe that it won't happen to the rest of us. The writing was on the wall in the mid 80's with the downloading of the domestic flying to second and third tier carriers, and was cemented with RM taking the helm at AC...lets not even begin to speak of the pension shortfall, merger, 300 million lawsuit (the latter two demonstrating the correct way to distract, divide and conquer).
Sadly, the road is already paved with pilots who will work for less, the chorus boys proved that in spades as they drooled to fly the mighty 757 for cook at Dash 8 wages just showed the CEO's in the airlines that there is plenty more to get out of the pilots yet...lets see what Sky Regional ends up with. Its all irrelevant anyway as the government will just open the country to eastern block and Indian pilots looking for the better life in Canada, its already happening.
Never said I agreed with the Carl Millard philosophy but at least in those days you would have had a good paycheque and a pretty secure job if you made it to Air Canada. These days, base and mileage at Buffalo looks better!
Be assured, I've seen failed airlines over the past three decades and I'm getting better at guessing which ones won't make it. Sure, it's a guessing game. If ACPA wants to see this LCC succeed it needs to protect its members by not letting them get involved. My rationale for such a brash suggestion? ACPA needs to strengthen itself not weaken itself. Trying to be all things to all members only serves to dilute what little strength (influence) it has left. Remember. Unionized pilots at LCCs are like hens teeth. Rare. That might be worth some discussion down at the ACPA union hall. This move is nothing more than a stick of dynamite tossed into a log jam. What's next? If it has jet engines flying in Canada it has to be flown by an ACPA member?
What is the general thoughts of the pilots that are at air canada about this new venture? Would they recommend people to make the move?
Overall though I think people see growth as good and particularly good for low to mid seniority guys to get into a better seat sooner with likely a better sched.
I think the biggest concern people have is that the LCC positions are on the current bid but there isn't yet an understanding of exactly how it will come together for pairings, scheduling, work rules, etc.
No doubt there are some guys that are indifferent to it or against it. You are going to see that anywhere though.
see your point Willie, but your focusing too much on pilots making or breaking any particular operation. Pilots are in fact a very small impact to the bottom line. A union guy might earn a bit more, but in the end he will fly 80 hrs just like a non union guy. Contract doctor from overseas to do your bypass surgery, or the resident surgeons of a respected hospital? The flight deck is probably the one place one would want the most experience. It's the big picture here that makes or breaks any new venture. If it doesn't work, pilots from the mainline won't even be a small reason why.
I do believe you threw the first personal attack. I only stated that I've heard all the same union horse shit before and that unless AC was going to use new people from outside that this venture has about as much chance of survival as Tango and ZIP. What is so difficult to understand about that?, If this upsets you and you feel that you need to fire insults then go ahead if this makes you feel better.
At the end of the day one cannot bury the fact that this move by AC is yet another in an endless series of moves toward busting the pilot association and dividing the workforce.
The insults ought to be directed to the truly ignorant and spineless amongst the profession who take these positions willingly while selling out the generation to come.
At the end of the day one cannot bury the fact that this move by AC is yet another in an endless series of moves toward busting the pilot association and dividing the workforce.
Agreed. So why do you have such a problem with AC pilots being up front? Why such an anti union sentiment? There are a lot of great guys at AC and most of them just want to do a good job and see the company succeed. 555 has it there, guys just want to fly their block and do their part. LCC guys will actually be making less than their WJ/AT counterparts , so why exactly will they propel it to fail?
What is the relevance of the "union horse shit" you think you have heard before? I see the union comittees trying to make this implementation as smooth as possible despite the heavy hand the Harper government used and the overreaching of the company in the new contract. I also see guys with pretty moderate and progressive approaches being elected by the union membership to executive positions.
You also talk about not selling out generations to come, seems like that is what governments and corporations are doing globally and not just in our business. Seems Labour are one of the few groups trying to work against it, and the inaccurate statements and negative sentiment that are out there are sadly misplaced.
Also, didn't intend to insult you, really meant to be directed at your argument. Adversaries not Enemies, you know?
Notice that the latest bid has been cancelled. The training and flow-though process was not well defined in the new contract (or the first TA presented to the pilots) and is causing havoc.
A suggestion to the AC pilots trying to work through this problem. Consider bidding left seat to the bottom, then use the accumulated command time to explore options outside Air Canada. There are many opportunities overseas IF you have the courage to take the jump. Consider it as insurance Working conditions offshore are harsher, but since the new contract was put in place, are starting to look comparable. The downside... having to leave Canada (if you want to take full advantage of the tax laws).
Keep in mind that the AC pension is in a precarious position and there is a very good chance it could be scrapped at the earliest opportunity. The "protection" laws started to erode the first time the Government permitted recovery relief. Out Government has demonstrated that they are NOT labour's friend.
LCC can be an opportunity. I fear, though, it is the first step in splitting the airline to allow for continued operations during labour disruptions. Not now, but in the not too distant future. Just like maintenance, the pilots will be given a choice as to who they want to work for. It worked once....
