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Will Sunwing last?

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Will Sunwing last?

Old 27th Nov 2008, 18:21
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Oh don't get me wrong RB, I understand the concept completely... but the fact is don't expect warmth and fuzziness if you loose your job from a company who cashes in on cutting the other's throat and doesn't succeed... or don't get on your high horses when a poster makes a prediction about it that you don't like... Like you say, it's dog eat dog. If you agree to the rules, then play by the rules!

That's my point.
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Old 27th Nov 2008, 18:55
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Gumbi:

There is no high horse to get off of here, rest assured. I have found myself unemployed/laid off from various reasons including the competition across the street undercutting and eventually forcing my then employer to lay off over half of its current pilots including me. These things happens and are out om my control.... I certainly did not get pissed off at the pilots at the competition. They were simply trying to do their job and feed their families just like everyone else. Which is the points I am trying to make in this thread. I for one wish no harm to anyone, including our competitors. I was or is not looking for any kind of sympathy(read warmth and fuzziness).... sympathy for what? I have a job for now. I could not care less if someone wants to throw darts at a calendar and predict the competitions demise... I just find it humorous that someone would go as far as telling me that I will be out of work the 2nd week of January!! On the upside I guess I don't have to study for my recurrent now that I know I will be on the street anyway!

As far as undercutting goes I am not sure who you are referring to, but it takes alot more than a lower price to succeed. Including but not limited to customer service, customer support and having a product people will by into more than once. I think vacationers are very loyal for the most part, and if they are happy with a product they will keep coming back regardless of the name on the airplane. Being able to offer a lower price than the competition does not mean everyone is going to come running to you. It does however make people that could not normally afford a vaction think twice about it.

In a nutshell I simply don't understand where people see the need to post lies or slander about others... competition or not.

Last edited by Rubberbiscuit; 27th Nov 2008 at 19:02. Reason: Edited for content
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Old 27th Nov 2008, 19:25
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RB

...let's hope you stay employed and enjoy flying as much as ever, assuming you do enjoy it.
At the end of the day, we only have 20/20 hindsight.
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Old 27th Nov 2008, 19:44
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Wille Everlean:

...thanks for that, and yes I certainly enjoy what I am doing very much. Still haven't figured out what the hell I am doing in this crazy industry though! Must be a sucker for chaos and a life in uncertainty I guess!!!?
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Old 30th Nov 2008, 14:39
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Sunwing's operation in Europe in the summer is over!
New EU legislation effective from november 1st!

http://ec.europa.eu/transport/air_po..._1008_2008.pdf
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Old 30th Nov 2008, 18:59
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Sorry but what exactly are we supposed to learn from this document, and how does it relate to Sunwing?

Can you point us to the relevant section? This is a pretty impenetrable stuff.
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Old 30th Nov 2008, 19:04
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First page paragraph 8

In order to avoid excessive recourse to lease agreements of
aircraft registered in third countries, especially wet lease,
these possibilities should only be allowed in exceptional
circumstances, such as a lack of adequate aircraft on the
Community market, and they should be strictly limited in
time and fulfil safety standards equivalent to the safety rules
of Community and national legislation.
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Old 30th Nov 2008, 20:39
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I read through it and I am not good at breaking down legal jargon but articl 13 "Leasing" seem to leave the door open still????


1. Without prejudice to Article 4(c), a Community air carrier
may have one or more aircraft at its disposal through dry or wet
lease agreement. Community air carriers may freely operate wetleased
aircraft registered within the Community except where
this would lead to endangering safety. The Commission shall
ensure that the implementation of such a provision is reasonable
and proportionate and based on safety considerations.
2. A dry lease agreement to which a Community air carrier is a
party or a wet lease agreement under which the Community air
carrier is the lessee of the wet-leased aircraft shall be subject to
prior approval in accordance with applicable Community or
national law on aviation safety.
3. A Community air carrier wet leasing aircraft registered in a
third country from another undertaking shall obtain prior
approval for the operation from the competent licensing
authority. The competent authority may grant an approval if:
(a) the Community air carrier demonstrates to the satisfaction
of the competent authority that all safety standards
equivalent to those imposed by Community or national
law are met; and
(b) one of the following conditions is fulfilled:
(i) the Community air carrier justifies such leasing on the
basis of exceptional needs, in which case an approval
may be granted for a period of up to seven months
that may be renewed once for a further period of up
to seven months;
31.10.2008 EN Official Journal of the European Union L 293/9
(ii) the Community air carrier demonstrates that the
leasing is necessary to satisfy seasonal capacity needs,
which cannot reasonably be satisfied through leasing
aircraft registered within the Community, in which
case the approval may be renewed; or
(iii) the Community air carrier demonstrates that the
leasing is necessary to overcome operational difficulties
and it is not possible or reasonable to lease aircraft
registered within the Community, in which case the
approval shall be of limited duration strictly necessary
for overcoming the difficulties.
4. The competent authority may attach conditions to the
approval. Such conditions shall form part of the wet lease
agreement.
The competent authority may refuse to grant an approval if there
is no reciprocity as regards wet leasing between the Member
State concerned or the Community and the third country where
the wet-leased aircraft is registered.
The competent authority shall inform the Member States
concerned about an approval it has granted for wet leasing
aircraft registered in a third country.

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Old 1st Dec 2008, 04:02
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[the Community air carrier justifies such leasing on the
basis of exceptional needs, in which case an approval
may be granted for a period of up to seven months
that may be renewed once for a further period of up
to seven months

That's from article 13 that means 2 seasons ONLY IF the authority grants them permission to lease!
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Old 1st Dec 2008, 09:50
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This isn't going to change a thing. The key word is "should" (only be allowed in exceptional circumstances). Not "must", but should. And it won't be difficult for an airline to claim "exceptional circumstances" either. We live in exceptional times! Notice how the maximum time is given as 7 months? That allows wet-lease aircraft to fly an entire summer season, as they always have done. It is rare for anything to last longer than that anyway so most airlines would not need to use the extension clause which would apply to concurrent periods of 7 months, not annually recurring ones as is what currently happens.

There are a number of airlines here in the UK with long-term reciprocal agreements with Canadian carriers (Sunwing, Skyservice), including mine. If we didn't have them we would be looking at massive fleet and crew reductions. That's pretty exceptional...
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Old 1st Dec 2008, 11:35
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If it makes you feel better and suits your current situation there's no objection on my side.
The law is there and interpret it as you like!
Thank you!
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Old 1st Dec 2008, 13:22
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From article 13:

(ii) the Community air carrier demonstrates that the
leasing is necessary to satisfy seasonal capacity needs,
which cannot reasonably be satisfied through leasing
aircraft registered within the Community, in which
case the approval may be renewed;
The above quote leaves the doors open for multi year agreements in my opinion. In the quote below, it does seem like the EU wants to ensure that it is not a one way street so to speak, but rather a reciprocal agreement. If nothing else it certainly seems to me that the EU wants to have a say in what goes on. I also agree with northeast canuck in that there is a lot of "should" and "may" in those laws which also leaves the door cracked.

The competent authority may refuse to grant an approval if there
is no reciprocity as regards wet leasing between the Member
State concerned or the Community and the third country where
the wet-leased aircraft is registered.
The competent authority shall inform the Member States
concerned about an approval it has granted for wet leasing
aircraft registered in a third country.
For the record, I do not believe in agreements that are more benefitial or only benefitial to one carrier. At the same time, we are in the same boat as northeast canuck in that without these reciprocal agreements I am guessing we would only need about 25% or so of our pilots/fleet in the summer based on this summers flying in Canada.
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Old 1st Dec 2008, 21:47
  #73 (permalink)  
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Nothing has changed Levantas, in fact Sunwing might be operating two aircraft this summer out of Greece for Eurocypria. Its a mutually beneficial agreement between two companies. It happens all over Europe and I can assure you nothing has changed.

Gumbi if company A can produce the same product as company B for 20% less therefore charge 20% less whats the problem? If Sunwing wasn't making money then I would agree with you but thats not the case. Are you saying that AirTransat is losing money?
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Old 2nd Dec 2008, 18:28
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I don't trust the EU or their JAA/EASA regulators. Certainly not as a Canadian. If you don't have work for your airline in Canada, then it makes perfect sense to sell your airline elsewhere. But, economics and protectionist regulations could sink that idea. Our reasoning and logic differs.

It is a protectionist regime (as it should be) and it will do as it likes to protect it's member states. (gee, what a concept?) As for interpreting their regs from a Canadian perspective, I'd forget it.
We Canadians (Transport Canada) aren't the least bit 'protectionist'. How many foreigners post on this forum, looking for pilot employment in Canada, and some, supposedly in-the-know Canadian pilot actually takes the time to tell the anonymous poster who he/she should approach about a job and what he/she needs to get the job.
Are you kidding???
(As for foreign pilots with an ICAO licence who legally immigrate to Canada, that's an entirely different discussion.)

Have you noticed not one, not one pilot group in Canada wants to champion the cause or tell our Government it needs to protect the few pilot jobs we have, for Canadian pilots? (not as far as I know)
I think I understand the protectionist attitude over there.

It might be worth noting, while Sunwing is 'expanding' by increasing its fleet size, passenger traffic worldwide is down significantly. Do we really think the bucket and spade brigade is going to be flooding the Caribbean and Florida this winter??? Are we that naieve?
Sure sounds like it.

I hope Sunwing has a plan.
I hope Sunwing has a really good plan.

...and another thing. If the available seats ARE controlled or directed by Air Transat Vacations, then the problem may go beyond a single carrier. Others could be affected by a significant decrease in customers who decide NOT to go south this winter.

You have to hope the brain trust at Transat, Sunwing, Skyservice and CanJet in light of the recent economic and political turmoil in this country, has reassessed their Winter capacity and aircraft lease agreements or (as I've already said) someone's going down.

Last edited by Willie Everlearn; 2nd Dec 2008 at 18:45.
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Old 2nd Dec 2008, 23:04
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Sunwing and Skyservice would not exist if they couldn't wet-lease to Europe in the summer. They send far more Canadians over to Europe than go the other way.

And as for the "non-protectionist" Canadians, think again. After similar complaints a few years ago they stopped validating licences and required Europeans to sit the exams and do the instrument rating (albeit on type in the sim).
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Old 3rd Dec 2008, 15:57
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Willie whats with the hostility towards Sunwing and others?
Anyone would think that you had been "PFOed" by these airlines. Are you pissed off at people in general? Or is your anger only directed at airlines that don't want to employ you?
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Old 3rd Dec 2008, 16:33
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northeast canuck:

I can't speak for Sunwing, but the seconded pilot numbers between Skyservice and the UK partners has been very close to an even match for the past several years.
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Old 4th Dec 2008, 00:30
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ecosystem

I'm not pistoff at anyone and couldn't care less whether ANYone wants or doesn't want to employ me. I've reached the point in my life (notice I didn't use the word career?) where I understand the industry well enough to know that I am no longer prepared to bend over backwards and kiss the ground so I can have another opportunity to work for 40K a year as a jr. F/O for another fly-by-night operator who expects me to wait 6 months for an ID50 while running medicals and checkrides every six months so I can sit in a hotel in Europe for six months at a time when the so-called "industry" is teetering on the brink. Thanks but no thanks. I prefer stability. You?

Pistoff??? Not me. I was merely musing about the potential for airline failures in this country. Can't you read?
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Old 4th Dec 2008, 01:19
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Willie Everlearn

I don't trust the EU or their JAA/EASA regulators. Certainly not as a Canadian. If you don't have work for your airline in Canada, then it makes perfect sense to sell your airline elsewhere. But, economics and protectionist regulations could sink that idea. Our reasoning and logic differs.

It is a protectionist regime (as it should be) and it will do as it likes to protect it's member states. (gee, what a concept?) As for interpreting their regs from a Canadian perspective, I'd forget it.
We Canadians (Transport Canada) aren't the least bit 'protectionist'. How many foreigners post on this forum, looking for pilot employment in Canada, and some, supposedly in-the-know Canadian pilot actually takes the time to tell the anonymous poster who he/she should approach about a job and what he/she needs to get the job.
Are you kidding???
(As for foreign pilots with an ICAO licence who legally immigrate to Canada, that's an entirely different discussion.)

Have you noticed not one, not one pilot group in Canada wants to champion the cause or tell our Government it needs to protect the few pilot jobs we have, for Canadian pilots? (not as far as I know)
I think I understand the protectionist attitude over there.

It might be worth noting, while Sunwing is 'expanding' by increasing its fleet size, passenger traffic worldwide is down significantly. Do we really think the bucket and spade brigade is going to be flooding the Caribbean and Florida this winter??? Are we that naieve?
Sure sounds like it.

I hope Sunwing has a plan.
I hope Sunwing has a really good plan.

...and another thing. If the available seats ARE controlled or directed by Air Transat Vacations, then the problem may go beyond a single carrier. Others could be affected by a significant decrease in customers who decide NOT to go south this winter.

You have to hope the brain trust at Transat, Sunwing, Skyservice and CanJet in light of the recent economic and political turmoil in this country, has reassessed their Winter capacity and aircraft lease agreements or (as I've already said) someone's going down.
I am still not convinced it is the EU's intention to shut down the possibility for wetleasing. Closing the door completely would be devastating for many of the leisure carriers over there as well. I mentioned it before, but repeat that I believe they want to protect the carriers from 1 sided agreements, and want to ensure the safety standards are at an acceptable level in the country where wetleased a/c comes from.

As far as the winter ahead goes, I agree something has to give. Overall capacity has been increases bigtime in Canada as we are into a deepening recession. I hope there is a plan as well and that my employer is willing to do what it takes to keep the company profitable in these tougher times ahead. Apparently preseason booking are very strong, but I am not sure how much that means in the current economic climate.

I love my job, but I am not as naive as to think nothing can happen. I hope I don't have to a job search again, but at the same time my resume is up to date and ready to go!

Last edited by Rubberbiscuit; 4th Dec 2008 at 01:21. Reason: Content
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Old 4th Dec 2008, 02:36
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oh I can read willie... I can read your past posts. I can read all about how you tried to scab your way into cx and even they, at their most desperate, pfoed you.
willie... why the hostility?
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