Are cabin crew safe or not?
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Cabin crew are different, and more than often during the few occasions we have to socialize with them, we all have been puzzled by their abysmal lack of maturity, education, logical process and general knowledge.
I am afraid your are suffering of a serious "I am god" symptom.
Where do they come from ? how have they been recruited and checked ?
Yes, this is true. But in that case expect they return you those questions; especially after this tragedy. After all, this is none of our business, let's the company's head shrinkers do their best.
Just what exactly what cabin crew are meant to do when they with us has been left out?
Maybe to open the door when requested by the one in charge and eventually warn you if the pf is suddenly incapacited.
I am afraid your are suffering of a serious "I am god" symptom.
Where do they come from ? how have they been recruited and checked ?
Yes, this is true. But in that case expect they return you those questions; especially after this tragedy. After all, this is none of our business, let's the company's head shrinkers do their best.
Just what exactly what cabin crew are meant to do when they with us has been left out?
Maybe to open the door when requested by the one in charge and eventually warn you if the pf is suddenly incapacited.
Last edited by Feather44; 8th Apr 2015 at 06:04.
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MM - please do not take it as an "insult" to the majority of CC. It's just an ill-thought through knee-jerk reaction to a tragedy.
The arguments are well-rehearsed, but a summary to me would be:
If we move to the issue of mental health and depression, I know little more than what my OM A says. I will not quote it here, but if poor mental health / depression on the Flt Deck is a safety hazard, formalising CC on the Flt Deck with just 1 pilot does not seem a logical step
The arguments are well-rehearsed, but a summary to me would be:
- The solution to a pilot intent on killing everyone on board is not to add 1x CC to the Flt Deck, but stop the situation in the first place (and research the "suicides", some are when alone, some with others, some where others return and they fight, and MH370 we do not know)
- Securitywise we need to avoid a predictable pattern of behaviour or SOP that enables a plan to "work". 9/11 was, from the terrorists pov, a great success: 4/4 aircraft successfuly taken control of, 3/4 reached their targets. All because SOPs and practices were predictable.
If we move to the issue of mental health and depression, I know little more than what my OM A says. I will not quote it here, but if poor mental health / depression on the Flt Deck is a safety hazard, formalising CC on the Flt Deck with just 1 pilot does not seem a logical step
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Don't get drawn by our man in Qatar, folks.
His apparent tenuous grasp of the English Language, can only lead me to conclude that the type of aircraft he 'pilots', goes back into its box at the end of the day whilst the batteries are placed on charge.
Good luck with the aero-modelling, Reinhart
Rhcriad.
His apparent tenuous grasp of the English Language, can only lead me to conclude that the type of aircraft he 'pilots', goes back into its box at the end of the day whilst the batteries are placed on charge.
Good luck with the aero-modelling, Reinhart
Rhcriad.
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Over on the thread reporting an angry pax assaulted an Easyjet CC, notice that the other passengers sprang to her assistance! and the violent passenger is now explaining himself to the Italian constabulary. I hope his sandwich proves expensive!
But once again proof that the passengers will no longer sit passive when there is an emergency!
But once again proof that the passengers will no longer sit passive when there is an emergency!
If the pilot wants to crash the aircraft they will regardless of who is sitting beside them so introducing anyone else solves nothing. What it does do is introduce another human into the mix, one that hasn't been screened to the same extent as the pilot who has always had the option of crashing the plane. One who is more likely to be under financial stress and one who is more likely to be exposed to recreational drug use. Brilliant. This is the dumbest thing I have seen in aviation in my 22 years full time employment.
I fly for a major European Carrier but operate out of one of our smaller bases and as such have known most of our Cabin Crew for some time. As Captain, I will liase with the most senior member of my crew and between us we shall decide who will be utilised for baby-sitting duties in the cruise. If, after our discussion, I decide that an inexperienced ( or any other valid reason in our opinion) member of the CC is not to be used for such purpose then that will my prerogative at the end of the day.
Clearly such reasoning is not possible in quite the same way within other organisations where pilots fly with strangers every day.
As 'Framer' suggests, this is a gut reaction solution to a problem that always existed but which the GermanWings incident has brought into sharp focus. If a pilot wants to bring an aircraft down he or she will do so regardless of whom is sitting on the jumpseat. The recent disaster was unusual in the way the co-pilot 'flew' the aircraft and its occupants into the mountains in a controlled manner. Previous similar occurences have I believe been more violent in their inception albeit with the same tragic outcome.
Clearly such reasoning is not possible in quite the same way within other organisations where pilots fly with strangers every day.
As 'Framer' suggests, this is a gut reaction solution to a problem that always existed but which the GermanWings incident has brought into sharp focus. If a pilot wants to bring an aircraft down he or she will do so regardless of whom is sitting on the jumpseat. The recent disaster was unusual in the way the co-pilot 'flew' the aircraft and its occupants into the mountains in a controlled manner. Previous similar occurences have I believe been more violent in their inception albeit with the same tragic outcome.
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As beamer said, there is no way :
- any CC will prevent the pilot to crash the aircraft if he has decided to do so. A couple of abrupt flight controls inpurs would send the poor fellow banging his head on the roof breakers panel ....
- in order to prevent the CC to open the door to one of his budies (in a remake of 9/11 scenario) robust SOPs wil have to be enforced, preventing the observer CC to operate the door knobs. This door will be opened by remaing pilots, to the other pilot only.
- I for sure will spend this time in the cockpit :
- not talking to the CC
- monitoring this guy continuously, until the F/O comes back....
- any CC will prevent the pilot to crash the aircraft if he has decided to do so. A couple of abrupt flight controls inpurs would send the poor fellow banging his head on the roof breakers panel ....
- in order to prevent the CC to open the door to one of his budies (in a remake of 9/11 scenario) robust SOPs wil have to be enforced, preventing the observer CC to operate the door knobs. This door will be opened by remaing pilots, to the other pilot only.
- I for sure will spend this time in the cockpit :
- not talking to the CC
- monitoring this guy continuously, until the F/O comes back....
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"Cabin crew are different, and more than often during the few occasions we have to socialize with them, we all have been puzzled by their abysmal lack of maturity, education, logical process and general knowledge."
I am Cabin Crew - and having just spent three nights on a longhaul trip feel like I have gained a little general knowledge about flight ops, because we had a fantastic Captain who endured the evening socialising with us and answering his crews questions. Maybe if some Pilots had the faith in us we are expected have in them each day, they may think differently?
Our F/O however was seen for less than 30 minutes a day and didn't interact with either the Captain or the crew, if you must judge try the person not the position.
I am Cabin Crew - and having just spent three nights on a longhaul trip feel like I have gained a little general knowledge about flight ops, because we had a fantastic Captain who endured the evening socialising with us and answering his crews questions. Maybe if some Pilots had the faith in us we are expected have in them each day, they may think differently?
Our F/O however was seen for less than 30 minutes a day and didn't interact with either the Captain or the crew, if you must judge try the person not the position.
Last edited by benji; 23rd Apr 2015 at 14:26. Reason: typo
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Great thread, made cry with laughter a few times with comments from both sides of the flight deck door! I feel that there has been a bit of trolling going on and a lot if biting! All IMHO of course.
I thoroughly enjoy my down route time with my peers in the flight deck and some of the fantastic crew who I have the privilege to work with.
We have fundamentally different jobs and I am always the first to admit that I probably do not have the patience and emotional make up to deal with some of the problems that the crew have to deal with day to day with the interaction with some of the more problematic travelling public. I know, deep down, that my frustration would probably get in the way of a more diplomatic solution therefore I leave that to my delegated representatives. They do the task extremely well.
My job is to fly the aircraft, manage the crew and achieve a safe, comfortable, efficient and timely service to the customer. We all have our roles to play in that scenario.
Do I want to have a baby sitter in the cockpit for the purposes of a necessity of nature? Nope. I can understand it is required in some airlines as their security arrangements differ from other companies but it is not necessary.
In my opinion it does undermine security as the lead in for CC training is, indeed, shorter and less intense than that required to obtain an ATPL. It isn't necessary as I firmly believe that if an individual, be they flight crew, cabin crew, male, female, pax or whatever, has a wish to carry out an atrocity, suicide etc. they will find a way.
What does need to be done, rather that the 'needs to be seen' reaction of ill informed Eurocrats dictating policy in an area that they really have no idea about, is making sure that people who have these tendencies are identified, removed from the role and given the help they need. The sausage grinder that is current flying training for young applicants to the role needs to be addressed and the massive financial burdens taken into low paid high stress low cost carriers looked at.
p.s. Just had a lovely night out with a great crew and a highly pleasant evening discussing nothing whatsoever to do with flying. :-)
I thoroughly enjoy my down route time with my peers in the flight deck and some of the fantastic crew who I have the privilege to work with.
We have fundamentally different jobs and I am always the first to admit that I probably do not have the patience and emotional make up to deal with some of the problems that the crew have to deal with day to day with the interaction with some of the more problematic travelling public. I know, deep down, that my frustration would probably get in the way of a more diplomatic solution therefore I leave that to my delegated representatives. They do the task extremely well.
My job is to fly the aircraft, manage the crew and achieve a safe, comfortable, efficient and timely service to the customer. We all have our roles to play in that scenario.
Do I want to have a baby sitter in the cockpit for the purposes of a necessity of nature? Nope. I can understand it is required in some airlines as their security arrangements differ from other companies but it is not necessary.
In my opinion it does undermine security as the lead in for CC training is, indeed, shorter and less intense than that required to obtain an ATPL. It isn't necessary as I firmly believe that if an individual, be they flight crew, cabin crew, male, female, pax or whatever, has a wish to carry out an atrocity, suicide etc. they will find a way.
What does need to be done, rather that the 'needs to be seen' reaction of ill informed Eurocrats dictating policy in an area that they really have no idea about, is making sure that people who have these tendencies are identified, removed from the role and given the help they need. The sausage grinder that is current flying training for young applicants to the role needs to be addressed and the massive financial burdens taken into low paid high stress low cost carriers looked at.
p.s. Just had a lovely night out with a great crew and a highly pleasant evening discussing nothing whatsoever to do with flying. :-)
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El Al security published a real god report on both check in and flight deck security a few years before 9/11. Alas I can't find it, but the main conclusion was that the flight deck must be isolated from the cabin in flight and the only way that can be done safely is with 3 pilots up front. The 3rd pilot can be a trainee or even an engineer in some cases, BUT to save costs there is no reason why the 3rd pilot can't assist in preparing the cabin for departure (Or an emergency) if the cabin staff need some extra help. That way the authorities might allow one less cabin crew member.
The air marshall idea was not too good and the FAA has got some real concerns over the quality of the personnel involved (Too many positive drugs tests I think).
The idea of allowing a cabin crew member up front is nuts, as you are far more likely to have one cause a problem than a pilot and it is a classic case of swapping one problem for another.
The only solution is to isolate the flight deck, BUT that is going to cost money as it requires a serious modification of the forward WC or galley area, to allow the pilots direct entry through a small narrow door from the flight deck. Obviously one of the cabin staff can check the WC is empty before the pilot locks the normal door by remote.
So the mod would require a narrow lowish extra security door directly into the forward WC, a modified WC unit (Might be slightly bigger or have a fold down sink) and a remote control external door.
The FAA, CAA et al do know what has to be done, but because the bean counters are calling the shots, there is no hope of them doing anything like insisting on a 3rd pilot or modifying the forward WC and door systems.
I suppose the insurance industry might take action and give a discount to any airline that fits a double door system with a 3rd pilot, as that might motivate the bean counters to approve it, rather than doing what some of them are doing at present and making sure the agreed value hull insurance policy is more than the value of the airliner, or figuring out how they can dump the company stock their "Friends" own before the price plummets if one of their aircraft is lost!
PS: The 3rd pilot idea will help improve the training of new pilots, as that does need to be improved. It wiil also give some airlines the chance to weed out any odd ball cases, like one chap I remember who was causing his rich parents a lot of trouble and when they asked if there was anything they could do to get him off the coke and out of town, he said yes, pay for my flight training cos I just love a nice uniform!
PPS: There should be a law passed that allows any pilot with training debts to hand back their license and leave, BUT the airline concerned should then have to pay off their training bond to allow them to find a more suitable job.
History always repeats itself and although the bean counters and politicians they fund might think financial slavery is a good idea, I don't and lot of other safety orientated chaps don't think it is either.
The air marshall idea was not too good and the FAA has got some real concerns over the quality of the personnel involved (Too many positive drugs tests I think).
The idea of allowing a cabin crew member up front is nuts, as you are far more likely to have one cause a problem than a pilot and it is a classic case of swapping one problem for another.
The only solution is to isolate the flight deck, BUT that is going to cost money as it requires a serious modification of the forward WC or galley area, to allow the pilots direct entry through a small narrow door from the flight deck. Obviously one of the cabin staff can check the WC is empty before the pilot locks the normal door by remote.
So the mod would require a narrow lowish extra security door directly into the forward WC, a modified WC unit (Might be slightly bigger or have a fold down sink) and a remote control external door.
The FAA, CAA et al do know what has to be done, but because the bean counters are calling the shots, there is no hope of them doing anything like insisting on a 3rd pilot or modifying the forward WC and door systems.
I suppose the insurance industry might take action and give a discount to any airline that fits a double door system with a 3rd pilot, as that might motivate the bean counters to approve it, rather than doing what some of them are doing at present and making sure the agreed value hull insurance policy is more than the value of the airliner, or figuring out how they can dump the company stock their "Friends" own before the price plummets if one of their aircraft is lost!
PS: The 3rd pilot idea will help improve the training of new pilots, as that does need to be improved. It wiil also give some airlines the chance to weed out any odd ball cases, like one chap I remember who was causing his rich parents a lot of trouble and when they asked if there was anything they could do to get him off the coke and out of town, he said yes, pay for my flight training cos I just love a nice uniform!
PPS: There should be a law passed that allows any pilot with training debts to hand back their license and leave, BUT the airline concerned should then have to pay off their training bond to allow them to find a more suitable job.
History always repeats itself and although the bean counters and politicians they fund might think financial slavery is a good idea, I don't and lot of other safety orientated chaps don't think it is either.
Last edited by skyship007; 22nd Apr 2015 at 18:00.
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Being CC and often in the CP when 1 Pilot is out for a leak or whatever, I chat with the other 1... At the same time, if need be, I could beat the crap out of the 1 at the controls if he goes on suicide mission ...may not come to much but hey, I would not go down without a fight!
Secondly, if the one at the controls has a heart attack ( which BTW, can be sudden) or any sudden critical issue, I'd be the one to open the CP door to let the other Pilot in immediately... The CC may not know to fly an A/C but they are there for a reason.
Leaving 1 Pilot in the CP may not be dangerous, but it certainly is better to have another person to be on guard... Is that bad?
Why feel threatened by them? With the locked door policy, COckpit and CC rarely can have a natter...enjoy it...it would make a good flight...
Secondly, if the one at the controls has a heart attack ( which BTW, can be sudden) or any sudden critical issue, I'd be the one to open the CP door to let the other Pilot in immediately... The CC may not know to fly an A/C but they are there for a reason.
Leaving 1 Pilot in the CP may not be dangerous, but it certainly is better to have another person to be on guard... Is that bad?
Why feel threatened by them? With the locked door policy, COckpit and CC rarely can have a natter...enjoy it...it would make a good flight...
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mary meagher
Who are "we"?
(FWIW, I'm not in favour.)
JimR
It wasn't.
He is, like me, a PPL - just a pax.
pacific_sunrise
Make your mind up.
According to your profile, you claim:
We are not asking the cabin crew to fly the aeroplane. Nor are we asking .....
(FWIW, I'm not in favour.)
JimR
Portvale, I think you need to read a few more of Things contributions. I'm sure his "just a passenger" comment was rather tongue in cheek.
He is, like me, a PPL - just a pax.
pacific_sunrise
Being CC ...
According to your profile, you claim:
Current a/c Type (Pilots only)
"Boeings..Airbus...Lockheed"
"Boeings..Airbus...Lockheed"
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Flying Lawyer
Thanks to you, I just edited my profile. As you have checked, I joined pprune in 2005 and have not checked in much since then 
If there is anything else you need to know...don't feel shy to ask! BTW a constructive reply to my post would be more apt, don't you think?
If there is anything else you need to know...don't feel shy to ask! BTW a constructive reply to my post would be more apt, don't you think?
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IMO it depends on the Purser.
If he's tough as nails during the cabin crew briefing on SEP and Security its a reasonable bet that at least 70% of the crew will perform in an emergency. If he's a weak 'one of the boys' type then the captain's the one who has to get tough with the young'uns (the old'uns don't really need it).
This is because the juniors have never been exposed to the potential dangers of this racket (which is understandable). When emphasising the hazards of even a wisp of smoke from any toilet, one will see the blank looks of ignorance on them when one mentions the Air Canada DC9 incident (which I believe is one of the absolute must-sees of any SEP class whether initial or renewal).
Having to run around doing ETOPS over a dark ocean in the middle of the night I don't want them running around like chickens with their head cut off if a cabin fire erupts. The life they save could be my own!
If he's tough as nails during the cabin crew briefing on SEP and Security its a reasonable bet that at least 70% of the crew will perform in an emergency. If he's a weak 'one of the boys' type then the captain's the one who has to get tough with the young'uns (the old'uns don't really need it).
This is because the juniors have never been exposed to the potential dangers of this racket (which is understandable). When emphasising the hazards of even a wisp of smoke from any toilet, one will see the blank looks of ignorance on them when one mentions the Air Canada DC9 incident (which I believe is one of the absolute must-sees of any SEP class whether initial or renewal).
Having to run around doing ETOPS over a dark ocean in the middle of the night I don't want them running around like chickens with their head cut off if a cabin fire erupts. The life they save could be my own!
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I'm so glad a no longer work for a big airline. A meeting I attended a couple of weeks ago discussed this problem, one major scheduled carrier said that they had decided only the SCCM would attend the FD. I think they are right, the SCCM tends to be known to the pilots as often other CC are seen once and then go off to other careers/companies.
Nowadays I fly VVIP, we know all our CC and all are welcome on the FD, and that has meant that the "good old days" of CC popping in for a chat and tea have never gone away from our operations.
Mind you, sometimes helping them load all the sea food salads can be a drag! Thank god my job normally keeps me in the front and out of the way
Nowadays I fly VVIP, we know all our CC and all are welcome on the FD, and that has meant that the "good old days" of CC popping in for a chat and tea have never gone away from our operations.
Mind you, sometimes helping them load all the sea food salads can be a drag! Thank god my job normally keeps me in the front and out of the way
