Non compliance of orders from cabin Crew
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Non compliance of orders from cabin Crew
Afternoon all.
Could I ask the cabin crew readers why it is that they allow passengers to totally disregard the rules and instructions they give out pre, post and during flight??
It infuriates me to watch members of the cabin crew just ignore passengers who
a, Don't get strapped in
b. Let wander around when the seat belt sign is on
c. Start unloading lockers during the taxi
Do the cabin staff have no authority on civilian airliners anymore??
Came back from holidays the other day and was amazed at the total disregard for safety both by the cabin crew and the pax. It was pointless
So, do cabin crew have any authority and perhaps more importantly, who is responsible for injury during such events? The individual pax or the airline?
Could I ask the cabin crew readers why it is that they allow passengers to totally disregard the rules and instructions they give out pre, post and during flight??
It infuriates me to watch members of the cabin crew just ignore passengers who
a, Don't get strapped in
b. Let wander around when the seat belt sign is on
c. Start unloading lockers during the taxi
Do the cabin staff have no authority on civilian airliners anymore??
Came back from holidays the other day and was amazed at the total disregard for safety both by the cabin crew and the pax. It was pointless
So, do cabin crew have any authority and perhaps more importantly, who is responsible for injury during such events? The individual pax or the airline?
Generally, for the crew as for anyone else, protecting oneself comes first; helping others is second.
There is only so much a cabin crew can do. Before takeoff and for landing, they will obviously secure the cabin, passing through the aisle one last time and checking everything to be in order before taking a seat themselves and buckling up. If a foolish passenger finds it wise to unbuckle the seat belt after this, how will they ever find out? And even if they knew, if they were to get up and deservedly admonish the pax, they would in essence sacrifice themselves and all the rules-abiding passengers for that one unruly: the cabin crew is no longer secured and rather prone to injuries, more than likely leaving their exit uncrewed in case of need.
If someone gets up on a quest for the toilet or starts to raid the overhead compartments, he will most likely be shouted at from the cabin crew stations; the maximum cabin crew can do is call the flight deck and report the cabin no longer secured - actions may vary thereafter and both options are not really desirable. A go around with its rather high acceleration is not always preferrable to an expected smooth landing.
What happens if someone gets injured due to his own stupidity and despite clear orders from the crew may depend on the company and also area of jurisdiction. Here, the company will firmly stand behind its crews and cover for them in case of trouble. Also, courts will most likely adopt a "common sense" standpoint and lay the blame squarely at the offending passengers feet if it can be made plausible that all the regulations have been complied with from the side of the crew. In other areas of jurisdiction, it may well be that procedures are examined and the company or even crew may be blamed for neglect.
There is only so much a cabin crew can do. Before takeoff and for landing, they will obviously secure the cabin, passing through the aisle one last time and checking everything to be in order before taking a seat themselves and buckling up. If a foolish passenger finds it wise to unbuckle the seat belt after this, how will they ever find out? And even if they knew, if they were to get up and deservedly admonish the pax, they would in essence sacrifice themselves and all the rules-abiding passengers for that one unruly: the cabin crew is no longer secured and rather prone to injuries, more than likely leaving their exit uncrewed in case of need.
If someone gets up on a quest for the toilet or starts to raid the overhead compartments, he will most likely be shouted at from the cabin crew stations; the maximum cabin crew can do is call the flight deck and report the cabin no longer secured - actions may vary thereafter and both options are not really desirable. A go around with its rather high acceleration is not always preferrable to an expected smooth landing.
What happens if someone gets injured due to his own stupidity and despite clear orders from the crew may depend on the company and also area of jurisdiction. Here, the company will firmly stand behind its crews and cover for them in case of trouble. Also, courts will most likely adopt a "common sense" standpoint and lay the blame squarely at the offending passengers feet if it can be made plausible that all the regulations have been complied with from the side of the crew. In other areas of jurisdiction, it may well be that procedures are examined and the company or even crew may be blamed for neglect.
Join Date: Feb 2000
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What should they be doing? I share the frustration: Crew don't like being ignored any more than anybody else, but the question remains - What should they do?
Should you pursue every miscreant under a zero tolerance regime? This will result in arguments (lots of them) and loud ones in front of everybody. It's not a good look. What if the passenger simply ignores you, or refuses to comply. What can you do then? Threatening to report somebody to the authorities only works with some people and simply antagonises those who don't care. It also creates an unpleasant cabin atmosphere for the other passengers, who will of course be delayed on arrival while the authorities do their authority thing.
Tu.114 has given the company line about support for the crew. The truth is that many airlines will side with a customer instinctively: Crew are involved in a witch hunt before they can turn round and there is a long list of people eager to pass judgement on how things should have been handled better (not the least here on PPRuNe). The courts are notoriously lax on pursuing and punishing aviation related crimes. Naturally, this isn't the case on this website, but there are a surprising number of people who really don't like Cabin Crew at all - sometimes with justification.
So there you go. You can tell people to do something on the PA, repeat it in person, check that it is being done and then that's it. If they choose to do otherwise subsequently, there is very little that you can do: Crew are adults and so are passengers. You can only do so much.
Should you pursue every miscreant under a zero tolerance regime? This will result in arguments (lots of them) and loud ones in front of everybody. It's not a good look. What if the passenger simply ignores you, or refuses to comply. What can you do then? Threatening to report somebody to the authorities only works with some people and simply antagonises those who don't care. It also creates an unpleasant cabin atmosphere for the other passengers, who will of course be delayed on arrival while the authorities do their authority thing.
Tu.114 has given the company line about support for the crew. The truth is that many airlines will side with a customer instinctively: Crew are involved in a witch hunt before they can turn round and there is a long list of people eager to pass judgement on how things should have been handled better (not the least here on PPRuNe). The courts are notoriously lax on pursuing and punishing aviation related crimes. Naturally, this isn't the case on this website, but there are a surprising number of people who really don't like Cabin Crew at all - sometimes with justification.
So there you go. You can tell people to do something on the PA, repeat it in person, check that it is being done and then that's it. If they choose to do otherwise subsequently, there is very little that you can do: Crew are adults and so are passengers. You can only do so much.
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Speaking for my own mob we have very few, if any, cabin crew who turn a blind eye to safety issues. Furthermore, the company always appear to back their cabin crew. For my part, I'll stop taxiing if asked to do so. There's nothing quite like the stare of your fellow passengers to humble you into submission. Finally, should the cabin crew ever feel that they might not be supported by their managers, I'll remind them that they can always count on my support.
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Apols - for clarity, I'm not suggesting that a blind eye is turned towards safety. Far from it. But you can only do so much. You can ask people, and then tell them, and then instruct them using the delegated authority of the commander etc. etc. but after that, not much.
If I have complied with the regulatory requirements and done so repeatedly, courteously and intelligently, then I have done my job correctly. It may be possible to stop taxying, and at larger airfields it may not. Or you may get a flight crew who for some valid reason are unable to stop at that time. By the time that they can stop, it is usually too late.
I have frequently experienced all the situations mentioned in the OP. These are the same people who evacuate with handbaggage and on the way home overtake on hump backed bridges while not wearing seat belts. Normally, Darwinian theory keeps them from being able to reproduce, but not always.
Cabin crew don't (as was suggested in the OP) ignore the rule breakers (at least most don't) it's just that we can do no more.
If I have complied with the regulatory requirements and done so repeatedly, courteously and intelligently, then I have done my job correctly. It may be possible to stop taxying, and at larger airfields it may not. Or you may get a flight crew who for some valid reason are unable to stop at that time. By the time that they can stop, it is usually too late.
I have frequently experienced all the situations mentioned in the OP. These are the same people who evacuate with handbaggage and on the way home overtake on hump backed bridges while not wearing seat belts. Normally, Darwinian theory keeps them from being able to reproduce, but not always.
Cabin crew don't (as was suggested in the OP) ignore the rule breakers (at least most don't) it's just that we can do no more.
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What should they do?
Have the buggers met by a dark blue (or colour of your country's choice) welcoming committee and sod the people who might be delayed by a few minutes as it's educating them as well.
Have the buggers met by a dark blue (or colour of your country's choice) welcoming committee and sod the people who might be delayed by a few minutes as it's educating them as well.
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Just out of interest: what's the CC's view on "passenger assistance" in case of unruly passengers? Friend of mine once was pax on a flight where a couple stubbornly refused to take different seats despite being asked to do so by CC several times (can't remember the exact circumstances). He finally told the reluctant pax that if they didn't comply immediately with the CC instructions, further delaying the departure for all on board, he would throw them single-handedly out of the plane (he rather has the shape and poise to do so). It might not have been a realistic threat, but it worked, and according to him, CC rather appreciated the "input". Good idea? Bad idea? Depending on circumstances?
Join Date: Feb 2000
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Vercingetorix.
Spoken with all the majesty of somebody who doesn't actually have to resolve these situations I rather think?
Armchairflyer
It depends on the situation. Sometimes well intentioned help can actually aggravate the situation, sometimes it works. Sometimes you suddenly understand why a fight on an aircraft is a bad thing. There is no absolute answer. If it works, fantastic. If it doesn't, you may have to explain yourself at a meetting where there are no tea and biscuits for the accused.
Spoken with all the majesty of somebody who doesn't actually have to resolve these situations I rather think?
Armchairflyer
It depends on the situation. Sometimes well intentioned help can actually aggravate the situation, sometimes it works. Sometimes you suddenly understand why a fight on an aircraft is a bad thing. There is no absolute answer. If it works, fantastic. If it doesn't, you may have to explain yourself at a meetting where there are no tea and biscuits for the accused.
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TS, yes really. To disobey the lawful commands of my crew, which includes the seatbelt sign, is illegal. You might get one chance, depending on how good a mood I'm in, but that's it.
in fact you don't have to be arrested just being escorted off by the cops is usually enough to scare the crap out of someone and the couple of hundred odd other observers see what happens when you dick about.
Resolving these situations is your job using the captains authority. If you don't want to do it I'll get somebody who will.
in fact you don't have to be arrested just being escorted off by the cops is usually enough to scare the crap out of someone and the couple of hundred odd other observers see what happens when you dick about.
Resolving these situations is your job using the captains authority. If you don't want to do it I'll get somebody who will.
Many moons ago whilst taxing in to the gate and the FD door was open, the Captain noticed several pax on their feet trying to retrieve their hand luggage. He told the crew to ensure they were seated and belted and then did an emergency brake stop. The said pax all fell over like skittles in an alley. A quick PA reassured the pax as to why they should remain seated until the signs went out!
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I have had someone arrested for standing when they should have been seated.
I wouldn't do the emergency stop thing on purpose if they injured themselves I would quite rightly end up in court for it.
In fact there should be more arrests for this behaviour month of pain and then it would be dealt with and people wouldn't do it.
I wouldn't do the emergency stop thing on purpose if they injured themselves I would quite rightly end up in court for it.
In fact there should be more arrests for this behaviour month of pain and then it would be dealt with and people wouldn't do it.
I have had someone arrested for standing when they should have been seated.
I wouldn't do the emergency stop thing on purpose if they injured themselves I would quite rightly end up in court for it.
I did not yet find out what exactly those pax are trying to achieve by getting up early, gathering their stuff from the hatracks etc. They will not get out before the doors are opened anyways, have to wait much longer in the passenger bus (air-conditioned or not, the doors will be open all the time) that will wait for the last passenger to board it (in case of an open apron position), spend ages at the baggage delivery hall until their bags appear on the belt, and so on.
Why not just keep seated, wait for the initial rush to push and shove by, and then without any hassle pack up, walk across the baggage hall, grab ones bags from the belt, and be out of the terminal in no time...
Why not just keep seated, wait for the initial rush to push and shove by, and then without any hassle pack up, walk across the baggage hall, grab ones bags from the belt, and be out of the terminal in no time...
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its was in the UK and absolutely no problems with paper work.
We didn't even need to bother with using the ANO to get him done.
In front of 3 police officers he verbally assaulted the crew, he then resisted arrest and I think they did him for breach of the peace as well.
Then to top it off after he was released they stationed a unmarked car near the long term parking and nicked him for drink driving.
And of course if it was an required hard brake then you are fine.
But as I haven't had to do one of them in the 13 years while taxing a multicrew aircraft.
The FO's brake check on the other hand can get a bit sporty but that's only likely to make the CC fall over doing the demo.
We didn't even need to bother with using the ANO to get him done.
In front of 3 police officers he verbally assaulted the crew, he then resisted arrest and I think they did him for breach of the peace as well.
Then to top it off after he was released they stationed a unmarked car near the long term parking and nicked him for drink driving.
And of course if it was an required hard brake then you are fine.
But as I haven't had to do one of them in the 13 years while taxing a multicrew aircraft.
The FO's brake check on the other hand can get a bit sporty but that's only likely to make the CC fall over doing the demo.
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I was in court a few months back following issues with a passenger who failed to obey the instructions of the cabin crew ( and the usual abusive language when asked).
I was less than impressed with the Horsham magistrates attitude that failed to take the Inccident very seriously but they had to base their judgment on the evidence as presented by the CPS lawyer who I would best describe as ineffective ( if I told the whole truth no doubt he would try to sue me).
However at the end of the day the defendant must have coughed up over £1000 in fines, travel expenses and Lawyers fees so I guess he will think twice about abusing the cabin crew in the future.
I also now know who I will call if I find myself up in front of the magistrates, the defendants lawyer was superb, as she wiped the floor with the lawyer from the CPS.
I was less than impressed with the Horsham magistrates attitude that failed to take the Inccident very seriously but they had to base their judgment on the evidence as presented by the CPS lawyer who I would best describe as ineffective ( if I told the whole truth no doubt he would try to sue me).
However at the end of the day the defendant must have coughed up over £1000 in fines, travel expenses and Lawyers fees so I guess he will think twice about abusing the cabin crew in the future.
I also now know who I will call if I find myself up in front of the magistrates, the defendants lawyer was superb, as she wiped the floor with the lawyer from the CPS.
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They also get a criminal record which means they will have problems getting work.
And if they get into trouble again it will be taken into account with the next sentence.
I think my guy was about the same for the aircraft stuff, he also got fired from his job, and it was his second time drink driving in 10 years which they crucified him for.
All that because he wanted to not stay in his seat when told to.
And if they get into trouble again it will be taken into account with the next sentence.
I think my guy was about the same for the aircraft stuff, he also got fired from his job, and it was his second time drink driving in 10 years which they crucified him for.
All that because he wanted to not stay in his seat when told to.