Where's the love?
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Where's the love?
After flying as an FO for a few years I always wondered why the long timecaptains I flew with always said be careful what you tell a flight attendantand never tell them if you made a mistake!
I never really understood that because up until now I have gotten along wellwith the flight attendants I flew with, since becoming a captain I made themistake of admitting to an error I made to a flight attendant.
Only to be accused of bull****ting her into thinking it was not a majormistake, and what I said to her was a direct quote from our procedures manual!
Next time a flight attendant wants to challenge me on a flying procedure Isuggest they fully understand the flight crew operating procedures manualbefore making any unnecessary accusations to their supervisor!
The only thing achieved here was to build a wall between myself and theflight attendants.
Thankfully there are still a lot of good flight attendants out there but it's those few that are ruining it for everyone else.
I never really understood that because up until now I have gotten along wellwith the flight attendants I flew with, since becoming a captain I made themistake of admitting to an error I made to a flight attendant.
Only to be accused of bull****ting her into thinking it was not a majormistake, and what I said to her was a direct quote from our procedures manual!
Next time a flight attendant wants to challenge me on a flying procedure Isuggest they fully understand the flight crew operating procedures manualbefore making any unnecessary accusations to their supervisor!
The only thing achieved here was to build a wall between myself and theflight attendants.
Thankfully there are still a lot of good flight attendants out there but it's those few that are ruining it for everyone else.
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The only thing achieved here was to build a wall between myself and theflight attendants....
You are totally right and thats rather worrying. I am Cabin Crew and I have never felt that I could not question a pilot on something that either concerned or worried me, respectfully of course.
Why would Cabin Crew be expected to know how to fly a plane or your procedures in the flight deck? They don't! If you make a mistake when your responsible for our lives as well as the passengers then you should be held to account.
Beggars belief the only way you have to vent is by berating Cabin Crew.
You are totally right and thats rather worrying. I am Cabin Crew and I have never felt that I could not question a pilot on something that either concerned or worried me, respectfully of course.
Why would Cabin Crew be expected to know how to fly a plane or your procedures in the flight deck? They don't! If you make a mistake when your responsible for our lives as well as the passengers then you should be held to account.
Beggars belief the only way you have to vent is by berating Cabin Crew.
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Of course one should be held accountable, that's why I put in a safety report.
It was not an immediate safety concern for the flight but nevertheless a report should always be submitted to catch emerging trends so possible procedural changes can be made accordingly. It's called good airmanship.
It's totally unreasonable to expect the cabin crew to understand our flight manual. I actively ask the cabin crew to speak up and not be afraid of questioning something that happened during flight, no matter how small it may seem. However it is insulting when I provide an answer to their query only then be second guessed.
Now I will make an effort provide evidence to cabin crew with questions on procedure, when I can, by showing the appropriate section of our manual.
And yes the same is true for some captains who make it very difficult for cabin crew to approach them and query them, only to be scolded. I try my best to use good CRM skills and the same should apply to cabin crew, I know a lot of cabin crew with very good CRM and communication skills, they are an absolute joy to fly with.
I suppose I do work for a relatively small airline and those cabin crew who are a little average get weeded out of the group as they progress to larger airlines.
It was not an immediate safety concern for the flight but nevertheless a report should always be submitted to catch emerging trends so possible procedural changes can be made accordingly. It's called good airmanship.
It's totally unreasonable to expect the cabin crew to understand our flight manual. I actively ask the cabin crew to speak up and not be afraid of questioning something that happened during flight, no matter how small it may seem. However it is insulting when I provide an answer to their query only then be second guessed.
Now I will make an effort provide evidence to cabin crew with questions on procedure, when I can, by showing the appropriate section of our manual.
And yes the same is true for some captains who make it very difficult for cabin crew to approach them and query them, only to be scolded. I try my best to use good CRM skills and the same should apply to cabin crew, I know a lot of cabin crew with very good CRM and communication skills, they are an absolute joy to fly with.
I suppose I do work for a relatively small airline and those cabin crew who are a little average get weeded out of the group as they progress to larger airlines.
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Why would Cabin Crew be expected to know how to fly a plane or your procedures in the flight deck? They don't!
Last edited by Dg800; 8th Feb 2013 at 10:00.
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I don't agree that crew should not flag up concerns if the pilots have not been clear or they don't feel able to chat with them. At my airline, its called a just culture, not a blame culture.
I also don't think crew shouldn't have a know it all attitude to the pilots, there should be a respect and if your crew member was rude to you that's not on - but stripes don't gain respect the person does. I respect UPP for his reasoned reply and explaining his original post, which was not clear to me so perhaps it was confusion on both parts that caused this situation? I don't need to see evidence when pilots say something, as long as they tell me like I am not stupid then I trust them to keep me safe. It is nice to hear you dont mind crew coming to you though!
You have got every right to be annoyed with the crew member, I would be - but is on a Cabin Crew thread the best place to vent, was my point. Granted this is a pilot site predominantly but the majority of crew work hard and respect the flight crew. I come on here, because a lot of the time I can get very intelligent and informed answers to questions.
I also don't think crew shouldn't have a know it all attitude to the pilots, there should be a respect and if your crew member was rude to you that's not on - but stripes don't gain respect the person does. I respect UPP for his reasoned reply and explaining his original post, which was not clear to me so perhaps it was confusion on both parts that caused this situation? I don't need to see evidence when pilots say something, as long as they tell me like I am not stupid then I trust them to keep me safe. It is nice to hear you dont mind crew coming to you though!
You have got every right to be annoyed with the crew member, I would be - but is on a Cabin Crew thread the best place to vent, was my point. Granted this is a pilot site predominantly but the majority of crew work hard and respect the flight crew. I come on here, because a lot of the time I can get very intelligent and informed answers to questions.
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Dg800 wrote; "The way I understood it is that the OP was only irritated by the know-it-all attitude he got from the FA in exchange for his open and frank attitude"
That depends on the delivery and the manner in which the point was communicated in the first instance, not to mention motive.
UPP - the last line of your of your second post probably sums up the manner in which you view and possible treat your colleagues. As a suggestion - I'd take your own food to work!!!
That depends on the delivery and the manner in which the point was communicated in the first instance, not to mention motive.
UPP - the last line of your of your second post probably sums up the manner in which you view and possible treat your colleagues. As a suggestion - I'd take your own food to work!!!
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I know it's hard to express in writing the way something is said and how it is perceived, its different for almost everyone. And I can only be honest when I write this but, as far as I could tell the way I told her and the way she responded was pretty clear she didn't like what I had to say.
It was all pretty innocently said, there was no intention of belittling or trying to pull the wool over her eyes, she has got a reputation for being a bit of a pot stirrer.
CyberBob, I'm not sure how you figure my comment is an indicator of how I treat my colleagues?
I get along very well with almost all the people I work with, flight attendants and pilots alike.
It's funny you mentioned bringing my own food, the food we receive on the flight deck is sealed before its put on the plane. It never used to be but after an incident with a FA now it is.
But nevertheless, I don't want to get on their bad side because I do like to get a coffee once in a while. Maybe I just won't ask the one FA I'm talkingabout.
It was all pretty innocently said, there was no intention of belittling or trying to pull the wool over her eyes, she has got a reputation for being a bit of a pot stirrer.
CyberBob, I'm not sure how you figure my comment is an indicator of how I treat my colleagues?
I get along very well with almost all the people I work with, flight attendants and pilots alike.
It's funny you mentioned bringing my own food, the food we receive on the flight deck is sealed before its put on the plane. It never used to be but after an incident with a FA now it is.
But nevertheless, I don't want to get on their bad side because I do like to get a coffee once in a while. Maybe I just won't ask the one FA I'm talkingabout.
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I know it's hard to express in writing the way something is said and how it is perceived, its different for almost everyone. And I can only be honest when I write this but, as far as I could tell the way I told her and the way she responded was pretty clear she didn't like what I had to say.
It was all pretty innocently said, there was no intention of belittling or trying to pull the wool over her eyes, she has got a reputation for being a bit of a pot stirrer.
CyberBob, I'm not sure how you figure my comment is an indicator of how I treat my colleagues?
I get along very well with almost all the people I work with, flight attendants and pilots alike.
It's funny you mentioned bringing my own food, the food we receive on the flight deck is sealed before its put on the plane. It never used to be but after an incident with a FA now it is.
But nevertheless, I don't want to get on their bad side because I do like to get a coffee once in a while. Maybe I just won't ask the one FA I'm talkingabout.
It was all pretty innocently said, there was no intention of belittling or trying to pull the wool over her eyes, she has got a reputation for being a bit of a pot stirrer.
CyberBob, I'm not sure how you figure my comment is an indicator of how I treat my colleagues?
I get along very well with almost all the people I work with, flight attendants and pilots alike.
It's funny you mentioned bringing my own food, the food we receive on the flight deck is sealed before its put on the plane. It never used to be but after an incident with a FA now it is.
But nevertheless, I don't want to get on their bad side because I do like to get a coffee once in a while. Maybe I just won't ask the one FA I'm talkingabout.
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Sounds like you're a spanky new captain UPP - thus begins the Great Learning Curve of Cabin Crew! 
...In every bunch there're always a small percentage of bad ones - you have to work out who the backstabbing
b!tches are and who aren't. Getting a heads up from experienced captains helps but that's only an indication.
Its up to you to determine the trustworthy ones, esp Pursers. But down there in PC-riddled Oz you'll have your
work cut out for you.
Back in the pre-PC days it was very easy to smooth things out with the girls - generally over some drinks at a
tasteful bar after the trip (but you paid!). Dunno if you can do that down there these days without accusations
of some bullsh!t sexist charge or other silly nonsense.
As a commander you have to solidly tin-plate your butt in anything you do. If you want to survive NEVER EVER
admit errors to any b!tchy Purser and only quote directly from the manual - and never glace it with "I'm sorry"
or give any more information than is absolutely necessary. Even with the most trustworthy hosties it pays not
to offer too much more neither. This goes for verbal and written.
As to male Pursers I've never had a problem with 'em - from either side of the sexual fence. Blokes appear to
be less backstabbing than the girls (in terms of ratio) and seem to better understand the Feedback component
of CRM - but maybe I've just been lucky.
Hope you read this before its no doubt deleted - I'm one who just says it like it is without sugar-coating it in
PC crap.
Good luck!
...In every bunch there're always a small percentage of bad ones - you have to work out who the backstabbing
b!tches are and who aren't. Getting a heads up from experienced captains helps but that's only an indication.
Its up to you to determine the trustworthy ones, esp Pursers. But down there in PC-riddled Oz you'll have your
work cut out for you.
Back in the pre-PC days it was very easy to smooth things out with the girls - generally over some drinks at a
tasteful bar after the trip (but you paid!). Dunno if you can do that down there these days without accusations
of some bullsh!t sexist charge or other silly nonsense.
As a commander you have to solidly tin-plate your butt in anything you do. If you want to survive NEVER EVER
admit errors to any b!tchy Purser and only quote directly from the manual - and never glace it with "I'm sorry"
or give any more information than is absolutely necessary. Even with the most trustworthy hosties it pays not
to offer too much more neither. This goes for verbal and written.
As to male Pursers I've never had a problem with 'em - from either side of the sexual fence. Blokes appear to
be less backstabbing than the girls (in terms of ratio) and seem to better understand the Feedback component
of CRM - but maybe I've just been lucky.
Hope you read this before its no doubt deleted - I'm one who just says it like it is without sugar-coating it in
PC crap.
Good luck!
Last edited by Slasher; 9th Feb 2013 at 03:57.
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Sounds like you're a spanky new captain UPP - thus begins the Great Learning Curve of Cabin Crew!
...In every bunch there're always a small percentage of bad ones - you have to work out who the backstabbing
b!tches are and who aren't. Getting a heads up from experienced captains helps but that's only an indication.
Its up to you to determine the trustworthy ones, esp Pursers. But down there in PC-riddled Oz you'll have your
work cut out for you.
Back in the pre-PC days it was very easy to smooth things out with the girls - generally over some drinks at a
tasteful bar after the trip (but you paid!). Dunno if you can do that down there these days without accusations
of some bullsh!t sexist charge or other silly nonsense.
As a commander you have to solidly tin-plate your butt in anything you do. If you want to survive NEVER EVER
admit errors to any b!tchy Purser and only quote directly from the manual - and never glace it with "I'm sorry"
or give any more information than is absolutely necessary. Even with the most trustworthy hosties it pays not
to offer too much more neither. This goes for verbal and written.
As to male Pursers I've never had a problem with 'em - from either side of the sexual fence. Blokes appear to
be less backstabbing than the girls (in terms of ratio) and seem to better understand the Feedback component
of CRM - but maybe I've just been lucky.
Hope you read this before its no doubt deleted - I'm one who just says it like it is without sugar-coating it in
PC crap.
Good luck!
...In every bunch there're always a small percentage of bad ones - you have to work out who the backstabbing
b!tches are and who aren't. Getting a heads up from experienced captains helps but that's only an indication.
Its up to you to determine the trustworthy ones, esp Pursers. But down there in PC-riddled Oz you'll have your
work cut out for you.
Back in the pre-PC days it was very easy to smooth things out with the girls - generally over some drinks at a
tasteful bar after the trip (but you paid!). Dunno if you can do that down there these days without accusations
of some bullsh!t sexist charge or other silly nonsense.
As a commander you have to solidly tin-plate your butt in anything you do. If you want to survive NEVER EVER
admit errors to any b!tchy Purser and only quote directly from the manual - and never glace it with "I'm sorry"
or give any more information than is absolutely necessary. Even with the most trustworthy hosties it pays not
to offer too much more neither. This goes for verbal and written.
As to male Pursers I've never had a problem with 'em - from either side of the sexual fence. Blokes appear to
be less backstabbing than the girls (in terms of ratio) and seem to better understand the Feedback component
of CRM - but maybe I've just been lucky.
Hope you read this before its no doubt deleted - I'm one who just says it like it is without sugar-coating it in
PC crap.
Good luck!
I have huge respect for my colleagues in the cockpit I certainly admire them for what they do (butI wouldn't do it for the world).
I'm not sure if CRM is more prevalent in my airline but there would always be open communication between all cockpit crew and cabin crew If an issue were to arise. Including "bad landings".
Macker-1ie
You say you are 25 years of age & yet berating a Senior & very experienced aviator that has worked in many parts of the world.
Try to "think" about what he is saying & not just literally interpret what has been written? Your type of response is exactly what he is talking about.
As you are so wise-could you describe a "bad landing"? What might seem like a bad landing could be a perfect landing-depending on the circumstances? On the other hand you could have what you consider a great landing from an "incompetent" crew that may have gone close to losing the aircraft several times during the flight but "fluked" a soft touchdown.
You say you are 25 years of age & yet berating a Senior & very experienced aviator that has worked in many parts of the world.
Try to "think" about what he is saying & not just literally interpret what has been written? Your type of response is exactly what he is talking about.
As you are so wise-could you describe a "bad landing"? What might seem like a bad landing could be a perfect landing-depending on the circumstances? On the other hand you could have what you consider a great landing from an "incompetent" crew that may have gone close to losing the aircraft several times during the flight but "fluked" a soft touchdown.
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Macker-1ie
You say you are 25 years of age & yet berating a Senior & very experienced aviator that has worked in many parts of the world.
Try to "think" about what he is saying & not just literally interpret what has been written? Your type of response is exactly what he is talking about.
As you are so wise-could you describe a "bad landing"? What might seem like a bad landing could be a perfect landing-depending on the circumstances? On the other hand you could have what you consider a great landing from an "incompetent" crew that may have gone close to losing the aircraft several times during the flight but "fluked" a soft touchdown.
You say you are 25 years of age & yet berating a Senior & very experienced aviator that has worked in many parts of the world.
Try to "think" about what he is saying & not just literally interpret what has been written? Your type of response is exactly what he is talking about.
As you are so wise-could you describe a "bad landing"? What might seem like a bad landing could be a perfect landing-depending on the circumstances? On the other hand you could have what you consider a great landing from an "incompetent" crew that may have gone close to losing the aircraft several times during the flight but "fluked" a soft touchdown.
Have never claimed to be 'be so wise' as you put it..
I deal With the cockpit crew directly and just The reason I quoted "bad landing" as it is common terminology used amongst our cockpit. This is a cabin crew thread. I'm sure I don't need to remind you of that. I'm Not interested in getting into A tit for tat argument.
Open your mind pal.
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it's those few that are ruining it for everyone else.
Why don't you just learn from your mistake - rather than dramatising the fault (whatever it was) next time something goes wrong, keep your trap shut. Small things (and sometimes not so small) go off the rails all the time and no one aft of the door needs to know. Why go blurting it out? There are some (many) things they just don't need to know.
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Tanua - the original poster came onto a Cabin Crew thread to berate Cabin Crew about a situation which essentially he started. So whilst you may think it supportive to close ranks and pour scorn on a Senior CabinCrew Member it just further proves the point the respect for the rank is being weaned away by those few who think they are owed it. Working all over the world doesn't mean anything in aviation - an airport is an airport its just the crew food that differs!!
Also, Crew always discuss landings and your perhaps kidding yourself if you think no crew have ever described your landings as bad, even though they may be technically correct. Often I have thanked the pilots for allowing me a month off with a bad back - they don't get all defensive if anything most playfully tell us all to foxtrot oscar!
Also, Crew always discuss landings and your perhaps kidding yourself if you think no crew have ever described your landings as bad, even though they may be technically correct. Often I have thanked the pilots for allowing me a month off with a bad back - they don't get all defensive if anything most playfully tell us all to foxtrot oscar!
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"Working all over the world doesn't mean anything in aviation - an airport is an airport its just the crew food that differs!!"
You have just shown total ignorance to what goes on upfront with that statement!
Maybe for the cabin crew an airport is an airport... But I can tell you, from the flight deck crews perspective international experience is incredibly important!
Try flying in some parts of Africa or SE Asia.... Then you will see why experience is required!
You have just shown total ignorance to what goes on upfront with that statement!
Maybe for the cabin crew an airport is an airport... But I can tell you, from the flight deck crews perspective international experience is incredibly important!
Try flying in some parts of Africa or SE Asia.... Then you will see why experience is required!
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Okay, I acknowledge airports differ and require different skills for example INN and JFK perhaps I struggle with the sentiment (not the op's) because a pilot has flown in through various airports that gives him the right to think he can behave however he wants and speak however he wants. It doesn't. No crew doubts that pilots are skilled and intelligent colleagues but its how that is used in the team that is in discussion.
Also just so you know, whilst I have never controlled a jet, I have flown through Africa and Asia. I found particularly in Africa, you should be culturally aware and have your wits about you, but behaviour breeds behaviour in any country/culture/group/person.
Also just so you know, whilst I have never controlled a jet, I have flown through Africa and Asia. I found particularly in Africa, you should be culturally aware and have your wits about you, but behaviour breeds behaviour in any country/culture/group/person.
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I always take people as I find them, be they either side of the door... If I get the cold shoulder from cabin colleagues or flight crew colleagues, then I leave it at that and do what I have to do with them professionally and with courtesy.
I feel happy to ask questions about what is happening/has happened at varying points during flight, but I suppose it all comes across in the way you ask a question, not the content. I have never been told not to ask questions or that I am being stupid for asking. I have found that, on the vast majority of occasions I have had want or need to ask about something, the flight crew have been only too happy to explain something to me, and I have been thankful for their time.
I have worked on the upper deck a lot recently and find if I make that little extra effort with the flight crew, they make the time for me, which I like.
Despite what has happened in the past at our airline, I still have the upmost respect for the skill and ability it takes to fly these machines, and find if respect is shown one way, then respect is shown for my skills of dealing with the SLF.
I feel happy to ask questions about what is happening/has happened at varying points during flight, but I suppose it all comes across in the way you ask a question, not the content. I have never been told not to ask questions or that I am being stupid for asking. I have found that, on the vast majority of occasions I have had want or need to ask about something, the flight crew have been only too happy to explain something to me, and I have been thankful for their time.
I have worked on the upper deck a lot recently and find if I make that little extra effort with the flight crew, they make the time for me, which I like.
Despite what has happened in the past at our airline, I still have the upmost respect for the skill and ability it takes to fly these machines, and find if respect is shown one way, then respect is shown for my skills of dealing with the SLF.
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Underpaidpilot your post made me sad because even though I am cabin crew it has become very apparent lately that, although most crew are amazing, there are a select few who you can not trust. I notice too you are from Oz. (I am too) Not sure what company you are from but I am guessing we are from different companies as mine is a larger one. Crew who back stab pilots/crew do it to get promotions. I hate this, good CRM is really important. I'm really sorry you got one of the bad eggs 
(apparently its not just CC I have heard of a FO doing something similar)
(apparently its not just CC I have heard of a FO doing something similar)
