From the pilot meeting with Willie last night a question asked was why cc are not being told what's going on by the company, just digesting BASSA newsletters.
The answer was that it was agreed that DURING the talks no information would be divulged by EITHER side due to the changing nature of negotiations.
(BALPA kept that promise during their negotiations, it was slightly frustrating but stopped hype and hysteria)
BA has kept to that, hence no comms.
BASSA could not keep quiet hence all the emotional newsletters.
As the deadline has passed BA will shortly be communicating directly with cabin crew so they have the opportunity to hear the other side of the story if they wish to listen.
With balanced comms and the introduction of ACAS things WILL progress.
It may not be to everyone's liking but it was clear that it WILL happen to ensure the future of the company.
The BASSA meeting on Monday will be too early to serve any purpose, it will just fire up the militants.
A good union would delay it until BA has put out it's comms and ACAS has had an input. A GOOD union I said!
Stallpusher continues to demonstrate a simplistic, one dimensional, Bassa/Socialist Worker Party view of the world, summed up by:
1. LHR cabin crew hate BA because BA hates them.
2. They detest Willie Walsh, (because he has the audacity to question their authority in controlling the operation).
3. Anyone who questions or criticises Bassa is jealous of them.
4. Anyone not in BA wasn't good enough to get into BA and is therefore jealous.
5. The government will support BA because BA is a national institution that the public would insist on being propped up by nationalisation.
6. Cabin crew and pilots do the same job on board and should be treated the same.
7. When it comes to a ballot and they get a 80% strike ballot from a 30% return, it will be considered an overwhelming mandate for IA.
I think that sums it up.
The last time I came across these attitudes was listening to the likes of Scargill, McGachey, and Red Robbo. Look what happened to the workers they represented SP.
I can't wait to hear the rhetoric from the Kempton Park meeting on Monday. I could do with a good laugh! I'd love to know what they are going to talk about when nothing has happened yet, it can't be to share information......
All that subscription money going to good use.. I hope the champagne is top quality.
There seems to be no end to BASSA bashing on this forum,from non-cabin crew.I believe the union are doing their utmost to preserve their members pay and conditions,after all,that is why employees pay their subscriptions.
The arguements over BA's long term survival and desperate need to decimate the remuneration of it's cabin crew and groundstaff is open to debate.My personal view,is that the economy will recover,oil prices will remain stable and BA will return to profitability.But who am i to speculate,if i was that wise i would be a very wealthy individual by now.
I have no doubt that the BA leadership are hell bent on forcing permanent cost savings through,during this window of opportunity,as world economies are in recession.Equally,i admire the efforts of the trade unions to get the best possible outcome for their members.
The 2 sides seem to be oceans apart in coming to agreement,the union making some concessions and BA management stating the company is in a fight for survival and at the same time,expecting AA and Iberia to join the supposed "sinking ship".
Very mixed messages and i do not blame the unions for their lack of trust in any figures quoted at them by the company.
As in all negotiations,it's a game of poker,will be very interesting to see who can keep their nerve during these difficult weeks ahead.
So we can take it you subsribe to the "ignore it and it'll blow over" school of thought then? How long do you think it'll take to blow over, and will BA run out of cash before then? If the trade union strangles the golden goose is that the best outcome for members?
PS Can you think of a reason why Iberia might not want to join the sinking ship (until it stops sinking)?
Carnage,i am never one to duck the issue.My belief is that BA can absorb huge fines for price fixing,£300 million if my memory is correct,the gulf war,with it's massive downturn is passengers,september 11th and it's well documented legacy.The current recession will end,when is anyones guess.The savings BA want from its cabin crew and groundstaff pale into insignificance with the huge ammounts the aforementioned events cost the airline.Reducing staff salaries will not save the airline or bancrupt it,however the ammounts involved are not insignificant.
I do feel and i reiterate this point,that their is a definite current agenda to decimate working conditions for staff that have been enjoyed for many years.As a worker myself,i would rather see less well rewarded employees aspire to achieve more themselves,rather than rejoice at the prospect of seeing other workers having their pay and conditions eroded.
There seems to be no end to BASSA bashing on this forum,from non-cabin crew.
Might is be as BASSA are threatening any chance of survival of the company, and that others also want to keep their jobs...?!
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My personal view,is that the economy will recover,oil prices will remain stable and BA will return to profitability.But who am i to speculate,if i was that wise i would be a very wealthy individual by now.
The economy is getting worse. Oil prices continue to rise. BA is presently loss-making, and without sufficient funds to cover working capital, will die as surely as Alitalia, Sabena and PanAm have died in the past.
The cookie jar of the UK government is not only shut but empty. An airline's survival is incomparable to a bank that supports payments systems. Without BA, Lufthansa, Virgin and Air France will happily grow at LHR and employ more people at market rate.
If you fail to negotiate, everyone in the airline will be joining one of the above at market rate.
Well Bermuda, it is nice to see a reasoned post here instead of the normal 'Pavlov's Dog' BASSA Bashing employed by the usual suspects.
BASSA/UNITE has been negotiating in spite of diatribes to the contrary here.
BA management have painted themselves into a corner by raising the bar so high, that even the merest concession by them will still leave a massive void. So any further ground given by BA mnagement will be seen as a climbdown and a loss of face by them.
I see that even VIRGIN's management relate to the same business school model of "FredtheShreddist-Klepto- Handinthetill" instincts as BA's, lining their pockets whilst laying off their poorly paid cabin crew by the hundred.
Bermuda - BA incurred a £300M fine. You can complain all you like about it, but unless you can get the authorities to pay it back it doesn't materially change the fact the company doesn't have enough cash. Interestingly nobody ever asks whether the the fine was more or less than the sum BA made through price fixing.
Gulf War 2 and 9/11 were nothing like the downturns we are currently experiencing, I was here for them all. You may also recall that Emirates and Qatar Airways were nothing like the competitors they are now back then. Etihad didn't even exist. Virgin were half the size. The Bermuda 2 treaty limited transatlantic competition at LHR. It's a different world now, and wishing it wasn't won't change it.
There is most certainly an agenda in the current climate, and that is to get the company fit to survive, not procrastinate and hope the problem will go away, because this time there's every likelihood it won't. Evolve or fail are the options facing us.
Very mixed messages and i do not blame the unions for their lack of trust in any figures quoted at them by the company.
Well go and employ Deloitte / KPMG to assess the figures for yourselves then.
Put it this way - Club is busy now only due to upgrades and discounted tickets. When Club was full at £5,000 per seat return to NY, the loss of revenue compared to today if 30 of those seats are no longer sold is £150,000 now that those bankers and lawyers are not flying. Let's say it is £50,000 down in reality if those seats are being sold at 2/3 the price instead.
£50,000 down on each return trip per day. Across the whole longhaul fleet of c.110 aircraft - £5,000,000 per day (I ignore route variations if you ignore shorthaul revenue losses due to the same situation).
£5m per day down = £1.8bn down for six months.
Added to which, there cargo revenues are down, volumes are down across the board, and robber Brown is after more APD.
So the fine was covered easily at the peak of the market...now all this cash has disappeared entirely.
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As a worker myself,i would rather see less well rewarded employees aspire to achieve more themselves,rather than rejoice at the prospect of seeing other workers having their pay and conditions eroded.
I thoroughly agree with you. Nobody is rejoicing. The piggy bank is empty.
BA management have painted themselves into a corner by raising the bar so high, that even the merest concession by them will still leave a massive void. So any further ground given by BA mnagement will be seen as a climbdown and a loss of face by them.
If BASSA had kept to the agreement not to disclose information that expired on 30 June, management may have been more willing to concede points. Instead, it is BASSA that has forced their hand into being more demanding.
How dim is that...?!
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I would like to know where the court case against Martin George and three senior managers in BA over Fuel Surcharge price Fixing is?
What is the relevance? The fine is offset by the undue gains made in price fixing, though those are of indeterminate size.
Carnage. Nobody doubts British Airways will survive the current downturn, unless as Richard Branson commented, that Walsh: "talks BA into an early grave".
Our business model has suffered more than most being a full service airline. Our regular customers may cut back and fly with RyanAir for a while, but they miss the lounges and other atributes that BA provides.
Now we witness once more idiotic BA management trying to justify their positions by cutting product that will reduce the service to our customers like chocolates withdrawn in First and no hot towels in Club Europe. Some aircraft have run out ot fresh water in flight due to aircraft departing with less than full tanks to save weight.
More damage has been done to the prestige of British Airways by the activities of its CEO and senior managers. Even more damage will be done when they provoke a strike amongst 30,000 workers in BA, not just the cabin crew. It seems that some people forget here that there are other departments at loggerheads with Willie as well in BA.
Walsh may feel that three Christmasses have come at once using the recession to permanently drive down employee wages, but VIRGIN has shown that even with poverty pay it is not the salaries and T&C's that make or break an airline. It is management incompetence.
T5 mole,are you justifying illegal price fixing as long as the financial gains exceed the penalty?....a very dodgy policy indeed and one i would hope is never,ever followed by one of our leading UK companies.It is precicely that appaling management style that has so incensed employees at BA over many years.The company has always been let down by those at board level,through incompetence or in your price fixing analagy,illegality !Look at the BA/Virgin dirty tricks campaign,when BA contacted Virgin customers and poached their business,Bob Aylings disastrous debranding of the aircraft insignia with the multicoloured,multi-design tailfin logos and associated corporate merchandising and branding.
The savings BA want from its cabin crew and groundstaff pale into insignificance with the huge ammounts the aforementioned events cost the airline.Reducing staff salaries will not save the airline or bancrupt it,however the ammounts involved are not insignificant.
BermudaTriangle.
Your quote sums up the nub of the problem...we know the savings will NOT cover the losses! This is not about covering losses...
BA need to borrow cash to get through the downturn as we hemorrhage money daily. As with any bank loan we need to show we can pay it back...eventually. Without showing permanent changes to our costs we will not be able to borrow enough to keep the cash reserves needed to stop out creditors wanting up front payment. There begins the downward spiral into bankruptcy!
It is up to BASSA to explain this to their members, I'm sure it has been explained in fine detail to them by BA. Most crew well able to understand the predicament, to think not insults the intelligence of most of the great crew I work with. It does however need to be dissected and explained and as such BASSA should dissect and explain which of their costs pay, productivity are valued at and ask their membership that IF it can be proven the BA are NOT lying what elements they are most willing to accede!
They have had months to have that grown up discussion with the company and their membership...it is a shame it has come to this entirely avoidable breakdown which now threatens their jobs, my job and the jobs of thousands of others. Not to mention the reputation of BA as we arrive in another summer the IA looming large.
Good luck to all...I hope a path of least pain can be arrived upon for all involved.
I think it is also worth mentioning the help that BA gets. It is widely known that although the Saudi routes were slow on the pick up, they are now quite busy. However 777 holds are full of cargo on these routes.
It is also helpful to BA that allegedly the Saudis are donating the fuel for the return flights.
Nobody doubts British Airways will survive the current downturn, unless as Richard Branson commented, that Walsh: "talks BA into an early grave".
Do you think thats because people think we'll trundle on unchanged, or they think the Leadership Team will take strong action to cut costs permanently?
Our business model has suffered more than most being a full service airline.
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Our regular customers may cut back and fly with RyanAir for a while, but they miss the lounges and other atributes that BA provides.
Do you know who our regular customers are? Do you think they'll fly Ryanair? They don't. They just don't fly at all. And whilst their companies are on the ropes they won't be coming back.
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Now we witness once more idiotic BA management trying to justify their positions by cutting product that will reduce the service to our customers like chocolates withdrawn in First and no hot towels in Club Europe. Some aircraft have run out ot fresh water in flight due to aircraft departing with less than full tanks to save weight.
Out of water? Really? Given there's been no reduction in the water loaded on aircraft I find this interesting. Can you tell me which, or which routes, because it seems nobody in Flight Ops knows anything about this.
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More damage has been done to the prestige of British Airways by the activities of its CEO and senior managers. Even more damage will be done when they provoke a strike amongst 30,000 workers in BA, not just the cabin crew.
Nobody is anything like as far from a deal as BASSA. GSS even had a deal before Unite stuck their noses into it. The only people who'll even get to a strike ballot will be BASSA. And you won't get to a strike.
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VIRGIN has shown that even with poverty pay it is not the salaries and T&C's that make or break an airline. It is management incompetence.
Or management competence, or the ability to be flexible and not downgrade passengers because you won't work two down, or strand people because you want two nights off after a diversion, or bump passengers because you want 18 hours off after a long day and need to position home etc etc. Or indeed having loaders who won't remove chocks or ground power. Or manning a single terminal with enough staff for two, even though everything is done by machine. And so on, and so forth.
T5 mole,are you justifying illegal price fixing as long as the financial gains exceed the penalty?
Huh? What planet are you on? I stated that the fine handed down was in fact offset by the illegal gains made (hence the fine being handed down) - therefore there is no £300m "hole" in reality, as the gains were illegal in the first place...
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