Yes CFC we can all pick and choose an article from a paper supporting whatever we want to believe. After all, we all earn £29000 don't we??
The fact is we are achieving nothing by all of this. I personally want to do my bit to get the company back on it's feet. I will work harder. If it has to be me and one other crew member on a flight, then I'll do it (just rhetoric Willie), I'll have less time off downroute, and I will be more productive. And I will do it with a smile on my face, looking after the customers that I love helping every day and providing a PREMIUM service that I have been trained to do.
We are in the midst of a recession and our company is asking us to work a bit harder and retain the same levels of pay. I bet Woolworths, Barrat shoes, Lehman staff etc would think we are lucky! In fact, I bet there isn't anyone outside of BA that doesn't think that's a reasonable proposition.
Staggering, truly and completely staggering. As a long faithful passenger of BA, with a keen interest in aviation, and speaking as someone who has been caught in the various 'summers of discontent' I can only laugh at the comments of those who are apparently willing to go to war with the company. BASSA was broken during the last dispute, it can never recover. There is no possibility that BA cabin crew will blindly follow the leadership of a union that can deliver nothing. BA cabin crew are by and large intelligent and aware of the global picture - They meet and talk to people who are affected by the recession every single day, and I have every trust they will work out what to do with a ballot paper. The game is over, accept it or not, it doesn't matter - The world has moved on. There is no fight, because there is no army.
Not sure who you are...but I appreciate the info anyway.
So the target was to hold the Flight Op budget level for 2 years. Actually BASSA did tell me that, I forgot! Nevertheless I am a little 'relieved' (still). The fact that the targets map each other still suggests to me that IFCE are not just increasing the target to avoid it being met, which was a real fear. After all, if BA want the talks to fail, then there is absolutely no hope. I admit, there isn't much anyway....but I do like to hold my glimmer!
Is the productivity side...the loss of the Heavy Captain and the adjusments to report/clear times (am I right in understanding you made those concessions too?) signed off forever, or can you hope to reinstate them in the future/after 2 years?
Can't remember who posted on the impact of 900hrs and the unworkability of long range night stops (was it flyer747?). You would be right if it wasn't for the fact of about 50% of cc being on part time contracts. 900hrs cannot restrict them. This is what BA have been able to use to hold the full time crew to the eu legislation.
I think the point that Unite are the parent union for all the branches mentioned...BASSA, CC89, GSS, A scales etc is not suggesting that any one group can break the law to interfere with the others dispute, but they can nevertheless coordinate the way they choose to apply pressure. As long as each group is in a dispute over its own pay and conditions that's not secondary action.
Is the productivity side...the loss of the Heavy Captain and the adjusments to report/clear times (am I right in understanding you made those concessions too?) signed off forever, or can you hope to reinstate them in the future/after 2 years?
You're correct in your understanding. No doubt BALPA will try to negotiate some of the changes back in a few years if they're able to, however this was sold to us on the basis that it's permanent and that's what we all expect.
Yes Walnut (post 72). Gordon Brown has ruined Final Salary schemes in the UK with his steath tax grab on pension tax credits when he was Chancellor. UK pensions schemes have lost around £100 billion up to now. The government should guarantee UK final salary pensions as it guarantees gold plated state pensions. Why should UK companies be so uncompetitive compared with those in the EU that do not have this burden?
Brown has been quick to nationalise the failed banks in the UK, support the car industry via the scrappage scheme and the housing market by cancelling stamp duty on properties under £175,000. Also airlines in the UK generate a lot of income for the goverment via APD, does Brown really want to see this goose die because of the burdens he has placed on UK business and the airline industry in particular?
Stall Pusher.
I couldn't agree with you more......
The 1500 hardliners who attend the meeting and stand to loose the most will give 100% support.
What about the other 13 000 who will not be there..............?
"Also airlines in the UK generate a lot of income for the goverment via APD"
APD currently generates about £900 million per year. That's the equivalent of about 0.4% on the basic rate of income tax. It's a flea bite in terms of the government's tax raising.
Yes Walnut (post 72). Gordon Brown has ruined Final Salary schemes in the UK with his steath tax grab on pension tax credits when he was Chancellor. UK pensions schemes have lost around £100 billion up to now.
Robber Brown's pension tax grab certainly did not help, but will only account for around £300m of a deficit estimated at around £3bn.
Can't see any government guaranting a DB pension fund just because yields are low and everybody is living longer. Any DB scheme except there own ofc.
So all the "hardliners" are there at the same time Witraz? More rubbish.
As in April's meeting, it will be a cross section of cabin crew who happen to be home on the day.
There are over 11,500 members in BASSA. However I predict that a huge majority will be taking a 'hardline'. Most of BASSA's members are female, who fortunately are willing to stand up to a bullying, opportunistic and incompetent BA management.
I think Super Stall that there needs to be a root and branch rethink in the UK on how pensions are funded as clearly the current system is far from adequate in the UK.
How does Air France provide retirement benefits for its staff for instance?
Yawn yawn, most of BASSAs members are female etc, this is bullying and sexism and badism and whatever other ism you care to name. I double dare you to take it to a tribunal, I could do with a laugh! When all the militants meet at Kempton on the 6th can you remind them to all to jump with joy, whoop and cheer when they have a show of hands for a strike ballot? It makes for great TV when you celebrate ruining peoples holidays.
Now if I remember correctly Air France crews pensions are part of a nationwide fund that incorporates crew from several airlines and is partly funded by the government. Problem is the French government is sitting on an even bigger pensions timebomb than we are!
A lot of people in aviation are looking forward to seeing BA's quote "overpaid, underworked" cabin crew lose their jobs. I hear them say this, CC from other companies including my own.
If this happens, I will be sad. It will probably mean other people in related functions will also lose their jobs. Not really fair.
I just wish the BA folk would help out their colleagues and their company, although it means new and lower T & C's.
I feel they will not agree with this viewpoint. Unfortunate.
Good luck as you drive yourselves out of a job. I have enjoyed flying BA for many years because of the professional aircrew. You wretched dinosaurs should face reality; get real or see a great airline go under.
Alternatively, apply for a job at Ryanair. Don't hold your breath for an interview!
"I think...that there needs to be a root and branch rethink in the UK on how pensions are funded as clearly the current system is far from adequate in the UK"
I think you'll find the rethink has already happened. For the past 15 years companies have been closing defined benefit pension schemes to new entrants, reducing benefits (eg linking to average as opposed to final pay) etc. Contributions to defined contribution pensions (ie those where the member takes all the investment risk) now exceed contributions to defined benefit schemes. There is no likelihood of any return to DB schemes. They are just too expensive.
I agree with your second point. Unfortunately it's not possible to have a grown up debate about pension provision, but that's primarily the fault of politicians who have exceptionally good pension provision, courtesy of taxpayers, and don't want to engage in debate knowing it will immediately focus on their pensions and the £750 billion of unfunded public sector liabilities that UK taxpayers are already on the hook for.
Finally, I know from previous posts that you feel "the government" (ie taxpayers) ought to cover pension scheme liabilities. Presumably you see this as a salvation for BA with its scheme deficit. Unfortunately you, personally, would almost certainly lose money if the government took your approach. Why? Well I think we can assume they'd have to treat all schemes similarly. BA's pensions are about 10-15% underfunded, or £3 billion in absolute terms. It was announced this week that the BT pension scheme, the largest in the UK, is 43% underfunded, which I reckon is somewhere between £45-50 billion in absolute terms. You'd have to pay your share of tax to cough up the £45 billion in return for receiving your share of £3 billion. It's not a good deal for anyone at BA, I'd suggest.
HiFlyer14, you stated "Yes CFC we can all pick and choose an article from a paper supporting whatever we want to believe. After all, we all earn £29000 don't we??"
The 'article' I think you are referring to is actually the data published independently by the UK CAA. The data has been published annually, since 1994, I think.
It shows the cost of employing the employees. So it includes Pension, National Insurance, Uniform, Training etc.
So just so that you are aware, it says on average it costs BA around £29000 to employ each Cabin Crew member. Not, that all earn £29000.
However, it also highlights that it costs BA twice the amount it costs Virgin to employ its Cabin Crew.
As we are paid as Air Cabin Crew, and hence can reasonably be expected to go flying, there is no way that our remuneration is 'minimum wage', as some of my colleagues have been saying that it is.
The membership of BASSA are absolutely incandescent.
A somewhat sweeping statement one feels.
The CC I have just chatted to over the past 5 days are indeed incandescent. However they are incandescent at the total lack of information being given to them about a situation that will have a huge affect on their jobs and lifestyle.
If I am being truly honest then about 1 in 50 CC are real, heavy BASSA supporters. The rest are concerned primarily for their jobs and their futures and THEY, not me or my interpretation but THEY are concerned at the mess BASSA have left them in.
If it does come to a ballot then I feel that BASSA may well get a shock when their 1500 massive turnout at Kempton Park from 14000 becomes a much smaller voting minority and most of the clear thinking CC walk away from BASSA. In these tough times the quieter CC are thinking it will be better to be new contract than no contract.
BASSA have left it all too late and are now throwing their toys out of the cot because they failed to reach an agreement by the deadline.
Don't forget in the pay statistics that 25% of the top crew take 60% of the wage bill.
If you had done some research you would have found out that BA is the only major airline in Europe with the pension funds on it's books.
Air France personnel's pensions are arranged through a national fund for all flight crew in France that is separate from the company, and supervised by the french government. A deficit will not weigh on the company's financial situation, the worst that will happen is that employer and employee contributions go up and pensions are frozen or lowered by a small percentage to enhance the coverage factor. In the event of bankruptcy pensions are not affected.
In KLM the pension funds for pilots and CC are specifically for that company, but privately managed and supervised by the dutch national bank. The fund is NOT on the books with KLM, so a deficit will not weigh on the company's financial situation (again: worst thing is higher conributions or frozen payments). The money is safe in the case of bankruptcy.
Don't know about Lufthansa, but I suspect it will be the same for them.
BA is in serious trouble over it's pension deficit, and it has a direct influence on financial viability and creditability. AF-KL was recently able to raise 660 million Euro through convertible bonds (they wanted 540 million but the emission was overwritten by 120 million), I seriously doubt that people are willing to invest in BA in the same way with this gaping hole in it's balance sheet...
What arrogance. Many don't work in BA as there are other great airlines in the UK other than BA. Just goes to show how much the BASSA castle is built on sand...
Quote:
The government should guarantee UK final salary pensions as it guarantees gold plated state pensions.
Brilliant. You're prepared to absolutely screw my generation, who not only has no opportunity to have a DB scheme, but also is paying through the nose for the excesses of your generation's scheme liabilities.
You can be guaranteed inter-generational warfare as well if you continue down that road!
Quote:
Why should I bother looking at what other countries provide. I asked the question
Perhaps a basic degree of research might help you look more informed and less reactionary...you implied a position without having done research and were proven quite incorrect in your assumption.
(I note that SP appears to have retracted the ingratitude quoted above by deleting his/her post).
), I'll have less time off downroute, and I will be more productive. And I will do it with a smile on my face, looking after the customers that I love helping every day and providing a PREMIUM service that I have been trained to do.
lucky! In fact, I bet there isn't anyone outside of BA that doesn't think that's a reasonable proposition.
Stall pusher
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