Ok, will leave you all to it as I am not going to get into a flight crew/cabin crew playground scenario. In the words of Shirley Conran, "Life's too short to stuff a mushroom"
Carry on your educated debate and have fun
Seriously, sticks and stones and all that. I'm fully aware that not everyone would agree with me, especially the hard-liners. I didn't expect it. Although I will take it as a complement that I'm "eloquent". Not bad for a LGW cc is it?
I'm not nor have I ever been anti crew. I'm anti stupidity and ignorance. I'm also not keen on blatant lies and mis-information as well as not representing members of a union properly. I'll explain (again):
Nobody was asked whether they were willing to accept a pay cut (as proposed by Bassa).
The injunction failure has been hailed as a success by Bassa.
Bassa refused to negotiate in regards to several things, disruption agreement and set monthly allowance instead of variable allowances are two that springs to mind instantly.
Anyone who questions Bassa's actions are shot down in flames. One might as well call them infidels. In case any of the hard-liners haven't realised this yet, we live in a democracy.
Here's the official from Bassa regarding the ballot:
Quote:
For immediate issue: Saturday 7th November,
2009
The ballot of BA’s 14,000 cabin crew will open on Monday 16th November, Unite the union has announced. Unite says that BA’s continued
failure to consult properly on 2000 notified redundancies and the company’s determination to impose fundamental changes to working practices, work organisation and terms and conditions of
employment leave it no other option but to ballot the cabin crew workforce. The union says that the company’s imposed
reduction to crew numbers is unfair and unworkable leaving fewer people doing more work but for less money - and that this will hit the service to passengers. Given the safety critical role that cabin crew have onboard, Unite fears that fewer crew will only lead to a worsening service to loyal BA customers paying premium prices as they are forced to prioritise essential tasks. Unite has called the ballot in response to the company’s determination to force through a package of measures including contractual changes without agreement of the cabin crew and their union. BA's changes will be imposed from November 16th, the day the ballot opens, on all existing cabin crew, reducing crew numbers on all flights by between one and three and forcing through new working schedules. BA cabin crew have repeatedly told the management that, while they accept cost savings need to be made given current circumstances, these must be by agreement and not undermine frontline services. Earlier this year, the cabin crew offered to take a pay cut as part of comprehensive proposal aimed at retaining in-flight staffing levels and thus ensuring that customers would not lose out. The company dismissed these proposals out of hand, although Unite believes the proposals would have delivered the company tens of millions of pounds in savings year on year. The ballot will close on Monday, 14th December, 2009.
My bolds. The first relates to that LGW has been operating like this for years, so it's not unworkable. The second relates to taking off between 1-3 crew off flights by all existing crew. Ehm, hello, it's not possible to take another crew member off LGW flights. This, to me, emphasises the lack of care for LGW crew. The last bold is pretty self-explanatory, although I'll repeat that the membership were never asked. Well, apart from a couple of hundred hands.
I also see that NewFleet isn't part of the ballot. Smart move. It might be even smarter to advice (asap) the crew who think another ballot will come after this one. They believe that when the crewing issues have been balloted, and a few months down the line there will be another ballot for NewFleet (or against, should I say). This won't be possible, I'm afraid. One cannot ballot/strike about potential future income. This information should be put out to members. Actually, it must be told, and now.
I know some people will find it amusing to say nasty things about me, but go right ahead. I'm not easily offended, I've got thick skin and don't forget, I'm eloquent . Funnily enough, a couple of days ago, I had a fantastic conversation with a wonderful customer who asked me if I was a rep and when I said no, she said that I should be. Interesting, no?
Earlier this year, the cabin crew offered to take a pay cut as part of comprehensive proposal aimed at retaining in-flight staffing levels and thus ensuring that customers would not lose out. The company dismissed these proposals out of hand, although Unite believes the proposals would have delivered the company tens of millions of pounds in savings year on year.
As usual, the failure to publish the facts as proven by an outside agency (PWC) that these savings (to be repaid after the recession) were not worth what Unite/BASSA portrayed, will see the ballot through!
Glam Girl, good luck in trying to convince your BASSA colleagues that what they follow is untenable.
As we have both found, if you question, with fact and reason, the BASSA line then either you are ridiculed or persuaded to 'stop discussing' your opinion.
Sad really, I would like to hear what BASSA has to offer.
So that there is no arguement I write on PPRuNe in several fora(e) and am a retired BA (last on the airbus) captain.
This is a public forum and I feel I am allowed to write on it.
Being retired I don't care whether BA goes bust or not as I am in APS part6 and can manage on my pension (even if it were reduced because of the current underfunding).
Whilst in BA, I voted once for strike action in the middle 90's.
I can't remember the actual reason, but my reason for voting for a strike was to protect the pilots at LGW who, as I remember it, were to be offered inferior pay and conditions (is it what is called scope?).
I think the vote for a strike was in the order of 80%+ (others may correct me if I am wrong).
The company backed down at the eleventh hour because of the strength of opinion.
Would I have gone on strike?
Probably yes but I certainly didn't want to.
What do BASSA consider is a % mandate for a strike?
What % do BASSA think is required for a strike to actually happen?
What do BASSA consider is a company concession for cancelling a strike ballot?
What do BASSA, once the strike occurs, consider is how they will end the strike?
It is all very well going on strike but you have to have to be sure that the majority will support it, if it is called, and have a clearly defined idea of how you are going to end it.
From what I read, BASSA haven't suggested how they will end it.
Do not worry, I am as passionate as every current employee to see BA continue - I gave over 30 years to it and the flying needs to be done - so let's keep it being called British Airways.
Deleted, the semantics of the thread were leading to me posting things I shouldn't. Apologies.
Interestingly you posted this:
Quote:
I've got to say,with one exception!!,as a CSD the 11 contract crew have been great and I will be sad to see any of them go.Hard working,enthusiastic and good fun.
Hard times at present will make it hard for BA to keep you.If I had a say there would be a lot of the dead wood/'don't give a sh*t people out before you.
Hope there is a turn round and we can welcome you back.
OK ,let's try to have a think outside the box.Now all it quietly children,yes ,you at the back! then i'll begin.
The ceo (willie wash at present ,but whoever it is) wakes up one morning ,his biggest creditors call in a large cash sum,the next fuel bill/contract goes unpaid and the company is bankrupt. Not likely but just supposing .A venture capitalist comes in ,suggest the there may be a future for a similar buisness but insists on certain principals. Min LEGAL flight crew compliments and the same for cabin crew. NBO as 2 pilots ,DEL with 8 cabin crew .This would be still far easier than a SSH there and back which my pal in TUI has just done . Flight crew drive a complicated machine safely ,we are customer service in the air,the CAA safety part of our job(the legal part) can be taught in days.
What would be the market rate for us cabin crew in this circumstance ,15K all in ,maybe 20?
For pilots ,maybe 40k for an f/o and 60K a skipper ,others would go east with their useful qualifications. Would any airline east of clacton be calling out for our services,think about it.....Less than 60K in charge of a jumbo and i'd expect the insurers would be having kittens,not so with cabin crew.
Not anyones fault but a long haul aircraft with lots of seats makes flight crew costs easier to bear (they become more efficient) but does not really reduce the focus on cabin crew costs.
Vote and leave if the decision is not to your liking ,i will.The various issues ive read about losing your house are probably that you have been greedy in the boom times,haddly a reason to suggest "bringing down" a blue chip PLC .
Go easy out there........
Last edited by doishquattroserche : 8th November 2009 at 20:33.
Before I post remember that BA and Easy/Ryanair are non comparable airlines even though the popular press often do so.
Also this is NOT a pilot discussion thread although many who post here, like myself are pilots.
Your arguments for pay, as have been discussed on the CF and the BASSA forum fall down against market rate. Now I know that 'market rate' is the 'buzzword' at the moment but, if you take a quick trawl of the internet, you will see why your 'flat rate' figures don't add up.
Comparable airlines:
BA Capt Top LH: £144 439 Gross
Lufthansa. Capt Top 217,500 EUR/year gross
Air France Capt Top 11500 to 15000 E per month gross
KLM Capt Top 246,092 (E17,578 x14) Before tax
So, lets just say that BA pays well but not top and often at/below market rate for us already.
Now unfortunately it is a little more difficult to find the figures for the Cabin Crew but, as has been posted here before from the CAA, the rates for BA Cabin Crew are somewhat above the market rate.
Whilst retention of flight crew is a cost saver for airlines, retention of Cabin crew is not such a major concern. Experienced cabin crew are important when serving a product but, in the downturn, they are an asset that can be trimmed.
Hence the reason for departmental cuts at differing levels.
Just wanted to mention that news from Castle Donnington is as yet sparse, but it's clear that quite a lot of CC from Mainline, Regional and Baby won't be kept on. Figures in total are hard to gauge but anything less than a 25% reduction in costs would not be worth the effort imho.
So, before standing up against The Company consider this. Is it better to be in paid employment, however unhappy you are, and able to look for another position or to go on strike - risk loosing your job and then have to seek employment without a job and in competition with many of your former colleagues?
I direct this question at individuals on the basis that in my career I've gone many an extra mile for my employer, only for it to count not a jot when hard times arrive.
In other words - your duty is firstly to you and your family.
Typing whilst wearing flak jacket, tin hat, toetector boots and safety goggles.
As I've heard many a passenger say in the past, ... "I have a question"...
From reading this thread the only thing consistent with BASSA and the die hard supporters is that they want a strike and to put 40,000+ peoples livelihoods in jeopardy.
I haven't yet seen a coherent argument or a sustainable proposal come from them to date.
Please enlighten me because as far as I can see, the crew are buying into a rhetoric that is void of any substance, with arguments that can be picked apart with only a cursory inspection.
I'm deeply supportive of the cabin crew and the fantastic job they do every day but I'm really worried they they are being led down a road from which there is no return.
So please, can someone explain to me, given that 'no change' is not an option, that "new" crewing levels have been tried and tested at LGW, and that BA are offering a guarantee of earnings through the monthly travel payment, what is it that BASSA are fighting?
wobble t p,I think we are in agreement as far as both sides of the flightdeck door are earning more that they would be ,without unions and IF they were exposed to the harsh realities of current market forces .However ,i was trying to make the point that you guys and girls have a skill which is still in demmand worldwide ( a friend of a flight crew friend has just got a command with qatar on a 777,i think) but us cabin crew are unable to command anything like what we earn outside if the distorted world of BA long haul,perhaps the reason for the desperation amongst some. Do BA longhaul cabin crew really think we are worth twice what a casualty nurse gets? I thought not,defending the indefensible .
Guys,vote sensibly or call the union and let them know your views ,get round that table!
How many crew at the meeting actually agree with BASSA though .What people say in public in this company can actaully be quite the reverse in reality. Especially when jobs and futures are at risk .As i've said lets all sit back and enjoy the show and see how BASSA digs it'self out of this one .A certain phrase springs to mind .OVER AND OUT .
Last edited by Weather Map : 8th November 2009 at 23:13.
To be honest, what will be will be. I hope I don't sound defeatist or fatalistic in my assessment but when I read the sheer vitriol that spills off the pages in CrewForum and those anonymous rangers who come over here to shout "BASSA 100%", I doubt any attempt to have a calm measured debate will ever be successful.
Some poor soul over there has mooted a difference of opinion about the need for change in BA, and in the space of 2 and a half hours has been metaphorically set about with baseball bats over 8 pages by the self-appointed cognoscenti. Not once does anyone seem to feel that the best way to deal with this perceived dissention is to educate. No, it's just screaming about waking up and smelling the coffee or getting ones head out of the sand. It's no wonder nothing progresses. It's tiresome, sad and belittles the individuals involved in the witch hunting. The oft repeated claim that it's merely because the posters are passionate doesn't wash when stacked up against basic social etiquette. The mere mention of dissent is nearly always met with a suggestion that the poster cannot be cabin crew/ must be a management stooge/ is a pilot posting on their partner's login. It seems beyond their comprehension that their might be those in their ranks who simply do not see it their way. My other half has met a great deal of unpleasantness thanks to this narrow-minded approach by some of her colleagues.
To expect, therefore, there to be much in the way of enlightened debate over here from those visitors is (barring the very notable exceptions whom we're all aware of), I suspect to wish for too much.
Hence I believe that no manner of discourse, negotiation or debate will resolve this as the hotheads are hell bent on proving that it's their airline and they say how it's run. It'll be strike ballot, strike and, finally, who's got the deepest pockets and the best legal team.
To say that it just simply didn't have to be this way understates the matter by a number of magnitudes.
MrB
PS - A small personal plea. Please, please stop using the image of the men raising the flag at Iwo Jima as the basis for your campaign image. Your two scenarios are utterly incomparable and you demean the memory of some extraordinarily brave people by drawing the visual analogy, be it intentionally or otherwise.
Good analysis of the pros and cons of the hourly rate.
Perhaps my comments were a little harsh, but peoples ignorance and unwillingness to even think about the issue is so frustrating. (And it's going to cost them dearly in income tax very soon ... )
If you ask an average crew member if they would ever consider an hourly rate, you will get something along the lines of;
"No, never, absolutley not, it would be £2/hr and we'd lose 1000's of pounds.
"So, would you take an hourly rate if it was £50/hr?"
"Yes. Errm. No. Because it wouldn't be £50, it would be £2, I don't trust them"
The real nub of matter. Crew don't trust BA to stick to an hourly rate because they don't trust Bassa to be able to negotiate it properly and nail down the small print (adjusted for volume, inflation, etc) If Bassa could negotiate this now, crew could capture allowances at a record high, and increase their pensionable pay. If you're going to be taxed on your allowances, you may as well get a boost to your pension, especially in BARP.
However, this won't happen, and crew will be let down again. Not by BA this time. They won't care. Less basic pay is less NI payments for them to make, and they won't care when the taxman comes after you.
Haven`t Unite/Bassa agreed to work with the new crewing levels until the 1st Feb when it proceeds to a full trial.If that is the case then BA will pursue an injunction against Unite if there is a vote in favour of striking, on the grounds that there was an agreement to operate with those crewing levels till Feb.I think trying to have 2 bites of the cherry won`t wash in court as there was nothing new on the issued ballot paper that wasn`t brought up in Bassa`s initial injunction request.And that was rejected.
Come Feb when a predictable 3rd quarter loss is announced along with a 2.66 billion pension deficit and furthur job cuts and savings, then events will have overtaken any importance of the trial.We shall have to wait and see, -there are too may `unknown unknowns`at the moment.
Lets be under no illusions here - the reason we are in the current situation is 20 odd yrs of weak and inept management on the part of BA. The unholy alliance of BASSA/IFCE that has wrought untold havoc over the yrs has only flourished because no-one has had the cajones to tackle this festering sore. So WW gets my support on this issue. I don't blame the CC(on the lucrative old contracts) for being somewhat miffed at the prospect of seeing their renumeration slashed - but c'mon, they've been overpaid and underworked for so long now. What rankles with me is that instead of saying,' it's a fair cop, we've had it TOO good for TOO long, we're greatful that we've had the good times for so long, now it's time for a reality check...' they (BASSA)are throwing a hissy fit and making out that the company's proposals are some sort of crime of the century - get real guys for gawds sake. BASSA is run by the senior CSDs/Pursers for the benefit of the very same minorty group. They don't give a FF for the new contract CC or for the LGW CC. What also rankles is the apparent indifference of some CC to the fate of the company and therefore of the many other employees in other working groups within the company! Some of the crew live in a 'bubble world' which is so detached from reality it's quite laughable....................
PS yes, i'm a pilot with BA and would like to be employed 2yrs down the road
Linear Mode
