EBA_Babylon

Klarity- your name doesn't happen to be richard does it?

I have been reading this post since it started, and "bitter" is not a word that comes to mind to describe those who write here. Almost everyone has a valid point to make. I for one, have been with DJ for a long, long (long) time and still love the company 100%, and also plan on being here a lot longer.

In saying that, I am not stupid- Given the current economic crisis we all need to pull together and do our part to keep the company afloat and profitable. I am also however educated and don't believe that we (cc) should be completely shafted for the next three years with this EBA draft. We all know this EBA is trying to be pushed through before the industrial laws change, and please, correct me if I'm wrong on that. But Klarity is right on one thing- life is too short, so lets not work ourselves to the bone to not enjoy it.

Cart_tart

My vote will be no. EBA_Babylon - I am like you....LOVE VB & LOVE working for them but there is far too much to lose under the proposed document & once it's gone we will never get it back. There are *some* positive things about the new EBA but far too many negatives for it to get a yes vote from me in it's current form.

I'll list a few of the things that really jumped out at me when reading the new document.

- Check out the clause re Managing Performance!! Our rights are GONE when it comes to disciplinary action in the new document!! Compare the old to the new. A massive chunk is missing - far too long to list it all here but go to clause 23 in the current EBA - C to G are gone as is L!

- Cancelling accommodation has gone from 36hrs to 72hrs & nothing to say anymore about cancelling on notification of flying! No getting called on AVL & cancelling accom on the spot & getting an extra bit of cash to cover your expenses when you're not staying in company provided accommodation!

- 12 hour duty times for international crews. In the not too distant future all crew will apparentally be doing online training which will make us all available for the international sectors. Then ALL crew will be able to work 12 hr duties as long a there is an international sector. Theoretically we could do a DPS or WLG return followed by another sector or 2 or 3! Have you noticed that there is no provision for extra rest for crew that will be working 12 hours? Not before, during or after a 12 hr duty!! We could do a trip comprising of 4 days of 12hr duties with only 10hrs rest in between each day!! Think of how exhausted you are now when you do 4 sector days followed by min rest! Apparentally we will only be entitled to ONE 20 min rest break during a 12 hr duty too!!

- Did you notice that the clause regarding passports & visa's has been changed. Clause 5.3 now says" You are required to hold a current passport. There may be times you are required to obtain certain visas in order to perform your duties. You will be responsible for the costs associated with these documents" Our current EBA says that VB will be responsible for those costs! I think its ok to pay for our own passports - but VISAS? Come ON!! It's a cost associated with those flights being crewed and therefor should be paid for by the company!

- As mentioned before nothing is in the EBA about buffers around days off - in particular single days off!!! This is scary! Imagine finishing a trip late, having 1 day off and then starting another trip early!

Think carefully before you vote YES. I realise that we are in tough financial times and am willing to make some concessions to help get us through & keep myself & others in a job. BUT there is a hell of a lot to lose by voting yes. We have a lot to gain by voting NO - the biggest being that we would be able to NEGOTIATE in the true sense of the word.

ozangel

Klaffe.. *ahem* Klarity... all well and good at youre age. What about those of us trying to start out? If the employer of your kids demanded 30% more for less, you'd be a bit more defensive.

Not all of us do this because the prospect of retirement frightens us!

KittyBlue

Hi,
I use to work for DJ, and i enjoyed the time i was there.

The choice of the 'EBA team' astounded me, as there was only one person who I knew of that had qualified negotiation skills, with a background.
That was the first mistake made in my opinion.

Has anyone checked against whats being proposed with the CASA CARS and CAOs.

Duty time etc which Casa hold standard are in there, of course dispensation can be sought by DJ for their needs.

I have helped negotiate 2 ebas at DJ and hearing all this talk on here it seems that some people are not up for change, let alone open to ideas.

I am not saying that DJ are saints in this process... like any business you need to make money, hold onto money... and inturn the crew need to realise that the market that you work in is a little different when all we had was legacy airlines. Standards need to be kept, held high. Some things can be thrown out.

Give and take is important, and i do hope that fundamentals of flying both pilot and crew are all listed in the CASA regs.... go have a read

good luck!

skyshow

Got the email today about the further changes just announced. Good to see they had listened to us, as two of my major concerns in my surveys have been resolved for the better. The other concerns (with pay increases too late for example) are obviously a sign of the times and are not up for negotiation which is a shame.

I'm still not happy regarding the overtime over 140. It just sounds unrealistic to acheive. Although 10 days off extra a year sounds good, I'd rather see a maximum of 130 in 28 days for example.

But something esle I cannot get over is the leave loading. When incorporated into our DTA, it will never increase. Whereas leave loading is currently given on percentage of salary and given when on leave, which increases when the salary increases. This is important, as our base salary in a couple of years will be $50,000 for cabin crew and $58,000 for cabin supervisors - but DTA of $6800 per year will always remain the same. Also the fact leave loading of 11% is handy to receive when taking leave.

Franck

Doesn't it sound great that we are getting an extra 10 days off a year? Think about it. We actually have to work a whole extra 140 hours for us to get those "extra" days off!

shoppingcart

Yep I thought about those extra days off.

Wont that mean we'll have to cram the extra work hours into less working days and we will be sleeping on those extra days off.

wirgin blew

The document is slowly getting there and the constant changes mean that management realise its going to go down again if they arent careful.
However lets discuss how far away they are.
Part timers and potential part timers will be more infavour so lets say 10%
Maternity Leave those on, those about to go, those thinking of 10%
Management type CC and CS, trainers and others on secondment internally 5%
Those who voted yes last time 7%
So thats about 32%. Then you include some nervous nellies who are worried about the airlines bottom line, those who are over the EBA, those leaving in the next 6 months, those who have changed there mind and the company can't be far away from succeding.
This thing needs to be vote through so people can get on with the job. Its got to be having a determental effect on the guest satisfaction with CC talking about it all the time. Make the changes recommended to you by the CC and FAAA, bite the bullet and reward people properly for a great job.
In return you will get your 28 day roster which is neither here nor there, you will get the new CC levels which once again dont effect us, and you will keep pay rises under control.
These last three things are what management really want and the rest is window dressing.
Do you want a yes or another no? The choice is yours!

EBA_Babylon

I agree WB-It needs to be settled on the principle of give a little, take a little.

Fellow cc, what would be your top 3 [realistic] changes to the current draft to get (not buy) your YES vote? in short?

Of course the fine print matters too, but it would be interesting to hear the top 3 points.

EBA_Babylon

So, the final document is "out"... I think anyone in thier right mind who actually reads the document will realise it's much to cc detriment if we vote yes.
Good to see the FAAA's quick response:

To: All Virgin Blue Cabin Crew
Virgin Blue Management has published its Final Proposal for your consideration.
It is regrettable that during ‘document drafting’ meetings, Virgin Blue Management chose not to consider any of the suggested changes put forward by your Association, as representativefor its Members. Changes such as - existing workable clauses remain as is, adjustments made to some clauses where issues have arisen, backpay to 1 September 2007 in exchangefor current practice of rostering higher than 125hrs generally, fair and reasonable pay increases throughout the next Agreement term.
Members are asking what the Association’s view is regarding the Document as proposed:
Clause Reference - Reduced Conditions
1.6 No Extra Claims - does not clearly protect Cabin Crew against Virgin Blue making other extra
claims against Crew during the term
1.7 Consultation - does not empower the solutions or improvements concluded by Cabin Crew committee members to be implemented
1.8 Scheduled Duty - does not protect Cabin Crew from continual displacement i.e. reduces roster stability
2.1.3 Part Time - no new positions at half full time hours, different resource group affecting roster and annual leave bids, 5hrs more overtime obligation per roster than full timer, no opportunity for double time above max hours, hourly rate paid only whereas full timer receives double time after max hours, no prorata of allowances or leave entitlements for 80hrs forced max.
2.2 Probation - never ending probation when ill
2.3 Duties - no protection against dismissal regarding manual compliance and checks
2.4 Contact - Crew would be required to be contactable outside of working hours
2.6 Redundancy - no protection or transparent fair process
2.9 Stand Down - no consultation with the Association or other agreed independent body
3.1 Salary - proposed CS2 rate is lower than current negotiated CS2 rate in current Agreement. productivity payments are single date payments instead of proportionately rewarding those Crew who, throughout each year, actually deliver the productivity
3.2 Allowances - no increase to Misc Exp allowance since 1 Sep 07 (5yrs without increase), less than 1% increase to Grooming/Uniform allowance since 1 Sep 07
reduced annual leave loading currently paid at 11.6667% on base salary
and paid at a lower tax rate is said to be included in a flat payment with
DTA:
CS1 $43368÷52wks x 6wks x 11.6667%=$538.80+$6435.10 = $7018,90 -
$7000 = $18.90 less and this is based on salaries as at 1 Sep 2007
Acting CS currently calculated on base salaries, now a flat payment not
increasing over the term. No Check & Trainer allowance
no protection for minimum number of sectors for buddy trainers
4.1.2 Taking Annual - no fair or transparent system for distribution of annual leave
Leave
4.2.4 Proof of Absence - medical certificates not supplied within 7 days result in $0 pay which is a serious concern given that regular sick leave audits are conducted where Crew are requested to re-supply replicas of previously submitted medical
certificates
4.2.6 Mid Duty Illness - more than 5hrs should be 0 leave accrual deduction and 5hrs or less should be half day leave accrual deduction
4.6.1 Parental Leave - Cabin Crew who become Fathers are no longer entitled to take 2 weeks paid paternity leave surrounding the birth of their child, as the document prevails over the current policy
5.3 Passports - reduction of full reimbursement of renewal costs
6.5 Overtime - reduction in payment of daily overtime as not paid until after 10hrs and not paid if working over max hours
6.2 Hours of work - greater hours daily, per roster and per year are a long term gain to Virgin Blue, yet the increased hours are paid as 2 x one off payments on 2 dates,
not necessarily paid to those who will actually work the additional hours.
6.8 Available Days - CS Available Day rate less than 2012 hourly rate
no fair call out order for available days or part timers on optional days
Outstanding Claims Preface: “Terms and conditions which promote productivity without overlooked compromising safety”, yet Buffers around all days off are removed, Meal Breaks are not guaranteed within a now longer proposed daily duty and despite copious reporting of the need for BOC/Red Eye provisions i.e. no
second sector, adequate rest following, cap number per roster.
The Association does not endorse this Proposal.
We understand that some Managers are stating to Crew that there is only one voting choicewhich is acceptable. All Cabin Crew should be assured that they have the right to consider the proposal and cast a democratic vote. Any specific instructions on a desired voting outcome should be ignored and the proposal considered on its own merits, not on what potentially could or could not happen after the vote. Any duress experienced should be reported to the appropriate body or to your Association.

wirgin blew

I can't see this getting up CC are giving up too much which will never be returned.
You think you might be helping out the company short term just like the board and management have but as soon as the good times come back they will be the first to pat themselves on the back with a big pay rise. Do you think you will see any of that?
This document is not an agreement, consultation with CC has been token at best (just listen to those who supposedly were consulted with), this is yet another group of managers dictating to staff what they want, surveys designed to mislead, roadshows where there was only one point of view, shall I go on.
VB CC Managers are ticking the boxes making sure it all looks llike they have been doing the "right" things.
The only option is to send them packing with another no vote.
Perhaps then we might actually be heard.

wirgin blew

So what you are suggesting lizzy is throw away all our entitlements in the short term and sacrifice any life we have for the company's best interests.
I thought we lived in a democracy where our voice could be heard?
We feel that the company has rail roaded us and is using the GEC to further their cause.
The company which is in such dire straights that upon signing this document will hand over close to $4,000,000 dollars on the 1st of July.
You are kidding if you think that this document will make or break VBA. Go back to your office and worry about your own job. No need to come here and pretend that you are one of us.

ozangel

my partner raised another issue.... WHERE in the document does it specify that you will take your days off in your home base? What is stopping them do what Jetstar do/did and have you take your days off in another city.

I stand to be corrected, but we both looked over it, and cant find it. If it does not specifically state that you WILL be rostered your days off in your HOME base, then they CAN do it.

lizzydizzy, the economic crisis is already showing signs of recovery. Virgin Blue is doing very very well - and would have shown more black ink had it not been for the perpetual stuffups by godfrey and his high fiving friends in head office. Despite their (acknowledged by many) 'stuff ups' (cant swear on here), they are trying to get cabin crew to pick up the slack. In the meantime, load factors show signs that we are winning QF group pax over (increasing our market share), yield is lower at the moment so higher load factors than QF means Virgin is probably doing better.

THE COMPANY WILL NOT GO BROKE IF YOU VOTE NO TO THIS AGREEMENT

The company want to get this through before july when they would be forced to include the FAAA in their discussions. They are DESPERATE, trying dirty tactics. They know that once the FAAA are involved, they WILL NOT get you as cheap.

dj_candidate

Hey Ozangel

I'm in total agreeance with your last post and have no intention of supporting the propsal.

But as for DDO's in home base - it's in the definitions.

"Designated Day Off means a rostered calendar day free of duty at Home Base"

LizzyDizzy - not too sure what the Cleo's have been saying, but glancing at Friday's Australian whilst getting call-bells, I noticed an article stating that the recession in Australia was showing signs that it would be over in months - unlike the proposed document that would still be in place in 3 years!

airtags

I reviewed the entire agreement for my other half and a few good Virgin friends.

Certainly it has 'improved' slightly but the prescriptions and lack thereof in some sections are definately red flags for anyone with half a brain.

Bottom line is that you are giving up rights for future negotiations, appellant rights in disputes and even more concerning is that the company becomes the superior entity in determining all of those very broadly mentioned disruption/economic viability factors etc etc., All of these are real losses for what is essentially a lower hourly rate of pay* that is not even indexed to CPI. (*based on the pay at 28 at 140 ) Plus the aggregating of sundry allowances also means that tax options are reduced. Similarly, the descriptions in the EBA also close off avenues for tax decuctions - telephone expenses is one such example.

The redundancy clauses are scary - and the connotations attached to areas such as 'performance monitoring etc' are draconian to say the least.

Areas of the document are written in first person, other areas in third person. Some clauses are far from prescriptive and in terms of contact obligations, quite contradictory. There is no doubt that the document has not had any professional due diligence processes applied .

Further, there is so much of the EBA that is effected by the cascading 'work rules'.

These 'rules' are the things that are interpretative practices that company, in the absence of a collective representative (ie such as a union), has the final say. Put simply the company negotiates with itself and you can bet the outcome will be 'screw the crew.'

As for the warnings of "there is only one way to vote" etc stupidly parrotted by some Mangers and even more foolishly believed by inarticulate and immature crew ...................I suggest a reality check.

VB won't go down - even with V bleeding cash - but remember that this agreement DOES give the company the ability to contract, redploy and reduce VB domestic crew pay and conditions if one of the related businesses takes a hit. (So if a VB investment such as V, pacBlue or dare I say a wrong punt with the forex markets or locking in a fuel hedge too late in game - is stuffed up and creates a loss ...the EBA has scope for the DJ crew to take the hit. You can be absolutely g'teed that the Exec contracts won't carry this risk)

The other consideration not covered is that with B, C, & D pay scale crew - and the open door for casual crew, INCLUDING crew from other countries, the company has an open door to 'performance manage' the higher paid crew out and slot the cheaper ones in. The agreement has no protection mechnanisms that other airlines have such as limits of the ratio between overseas crew to local crew and the number of casuals that can be engaged. (Also read VB's wish list submissions to the Fed govts aviation green paper and you can see the huge risk to current crew if this agreement was to get up.)

As I said before I'm up front for another airline but I am very concerned for my partner and her friends. Our household has suffered from a month's leave without pay, and several months part time. For that matter it is almost three months since my polite and professional letter to "email me anytime Brett Godfrey" still remains unanswered - despite his promise to reply. I guess he does not like answering the hard questions.

IR is a partnership - sure the BLF style days of unions vs the management are (or should be) things of the past, however anyone signing up to this agreement is either very inexperienced or does not understand that the $2,500 sign on payment is less than the pay adjustments you are already owed and entitled to.

I would strongly suggest voting NO - and then formally requesting your union to properly represent you in professional responsible, transparent negotiations.

By the way, VB cannot get the AIRC to overule you vote and force the agreement upon you as stupidly proclaimed by one highly overpaid (and overrated) small 'm' - manager.

If you are going have an EBA then get a real one that is fair and gives the business a chance at getting back to what is was and what it should - a really profitable excellent LCC.

Good Luck with it all

AT

vbcs

skyshow

Quote:

In case you were all too busy ready cleo in the back galley and ignoring the call bell in the asile that is the real world

lizzydizzy,
Only on crew rest honey. And perhaps it is you who should stop reading Cleo as its aisle, not asile. That is all.

V Australia will be making money sooner than expected down the track, and load factors are surprisingly usually very high in business class and freight is going really well. Heard full business class + current frieght agreement = breakeven per flight.

Remember, Virgin Blue will come ahead around 2 million in savings due to new crew starting off on lower base salaries alone. Although they will accrue to 5th year salary conditions after 4 years service, there will always be new crew hence cheaper base salary crew. Forever.

airtags

skyshow
if there is already a massive surplus of crew as evidenced by the leave without pay and part time allocations........- and V continues to 'release CC back to DJ domestic ops....
......and as you state - VB is going to 'make' a saving of 2 million with new crew......
........who gets the flick to make way for these new crew?

suggest you seriously rethink the logic and get a real EBA

AT

skyshow

airtags

What do you mean that V is sending crew to DJ ops? V will be taking 50 crew from VB in transfers from domestic to international this year (V actully need over 100). External recruitment for V is happening too for sure (my friend is a blue star referee and is one of them).

And as for the new crew on less salaries to begin with, no one will be effected by it in the way you described - this is only for when they hire again (obviously not even this year at least).

With more international flying for VB - DPS, NAN, WLG overnights etc... (which was expected to break even but already making a profit), there is more utilisation of aircraft during these tough times, with another one or two destinations to be announced soon, hence the need for more flying then anticipated. Yes there is a surplus of crew, but as we're told, the impact is much more minimal then first thought.

And as for trying to get a real EBA.... We're trying.

EBA_Babylon

I'm surprised in your lack of confidence in our airline.

If you are infact vb crew lizzydizzy, perhaps on a yes vote you will be one of the first of our surplus crew ousted for having such a poor attitude- which quite possibly is reflected in one's propel, one's lack of acknowledging CICS by the due date, or high sick leave with a trend on weekends? See there's grounds for employment review right there.

You can still be loyal crew without selling out to this insulting EBA. We've seen the company through tough times, and we'll see them through again, yet bullying/buying a yes vote simply won't work.

But thanks for your "suggestion" all the same....and good luck in trying to get that annual leave...