EASA Lic for N Reg pilots domiciled EU.
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Apples and Oranges. He already holds a correct licence for the state of aircraft registry and has already been flying his company aircraft with it. An EASA licence should not be required
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ATC
Firstly I have a friend who has just achieved his EASA ATPs after flying foreign reg on Midsize Biz Jets. He was replaced off his current position for 6 months on full pay with a very understanding Boss went to Oxford full time. HE failed and it dragged for 1.5 years before he completed and past the 14 exams
For myself I would be no good at distant learning I need the structure of a full time course but if I took six months away I would come back to no aeroplanes to fly
So really we were promised at the start of all this a BASA for PPL and Commercial Licenses and I had hoped for a much more realistic conversion like why not ? Air Law ?
So yes thats an option but then I am an older pilot and any pilot approaching say 60 is going to think is it worth the hassle and huge expense just to carry on doing what you are already doing quite happily and safely. I haven't killed anyone yet in 30 years of flying a lot in hard IFR and in Piston twins and 15 years in jets
So there is the motivation factor! If I was 30 or even 40 a no brainer
Lastly the principal That this was instigated by two small pressure groups mainly french with a lot of power and its a sour grapes move to eliminate N reg in the EU . Achieving and maintaining two sets of licenses when the one has no validity on the aircraft you fly
Madness
If something makes sense and its fair then it ticks a box with me. This is non sense and not fair and doesn't tick the box to a section of European flying which is well established and where some pilots have built legitimate careers for longer than the EU has been in existence.
Why because most private jets were N or other flags and if thats what you wanted to fly thats what you had to do.
Its not our fault that so many N reg were allowed to develop in Europe so why should we suffer for failings in the authorities which allowed them to develop so extensively if they didn't want them.
Has EASA offered any Grandfathering rights for established pilots NO have EASA tried to accommodate older pilots by offering annual validations until they run their careers out ? NO
So yes the exams are one way to go but will need to think whether its worth it
And yes if a wealthy guy wanted to challenge this shambles in the EU courts and took along a battalion of lawyers The commission would have to act or shut down this ridiculous legislation
Thinking about how much I write on pprune maybe if I stuck pprune on top of the exam headings I would sail through the distant learning
Pace
Firstly I have a friend who has just achieved his EASA ATPs after flying foreign reg on Midsize Biz Jets. He was replaced off his current position for 6 months on full pay with a very understanding Boss went to Oxford full time. HE failed and it dragged for 1.5 years before he completed and past the 14 exams
For myself I would be no good at distant learning I need the structure of a full time course but if I took six months away I would come back to no aeroplanes to fly
So really we were promised at the start of all this a BASA for PPL and Commercial Licenses and I had hoped for a much more realistic conversion like why not ? Air Law ?
So yes thats an option but then I am an older pilot and any pilot approaching say 60 is going to think is it worth the hassle and huge expense just to carry on doing what you are already doing quite happily and safely. I haven't killed anyone yet in 30 years of flying a lot in hard IFR and in Piston twins and 15 years in jets
So there is the motivation factor! If I was 30 or even 40 a no brainer
Lastly the principal That this was instigated by two small pressure groups mainly french with a lot of power and its a sour grapes move to eliminate N reg in the EU . Achieving and maintaining two sets of licenses when the one has no validity on the aircraft you fly
Madness If something makes sense and its fair then it ticks a box with me. This is non sense and not fair and doesn't tick the box to a section of European flying which is well established and where some pilots have built legitimate careers for longer than the EU has been in existence.
Why because most private jets were N or other flags and if thats what you wanted to fly thats what you had to do.
Its not our fault that so many N reg were allowed to develop in Europe so why should we suffer for failings in the authorities which allowed them to develop so extensively if they didn't want them.
Has EASA offered any Grandfathering rights for established pilots NO have EASA tried to accommodate older pilots by offering annual validations until they run their careers out ? NO
So yes the exams are one way to go but will need to think whether its worth it
And yes if a wealthy guy wanted to challenge this shambles in the EU courts and took along a battalion of lawyers The commission would have to act or shut down this ridiculous legislation
Thinking about how much I write on pprune maybe if I stuck pprune on top of the exam headings I would sail through the distant learning
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 8th Apr 2016 at 19:28.
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Above The Clouds.....how many years ago? How many of the 14 exams did you do? How many types did you hold at conversion? How many exams did the FAA make you sit and were they relevant to flying a plane, or were they questions like "How does the surface temperature get affected by Solar flares in Winter, in the Southern Hemisphere?" A) Who knows B) Who cares C) Ask a BA 777 Captain and watch his head explode or D) It's not relevant to flying an aircraft!!!
Seriously though....how many people got grandfather rights? Until a year or so back, how many people who could demonstrate flying an airliner on an FAA ticket for more than 3000 hours or something (exact rule eludes me) got given JAR licenses? I don't know, but they used to hand them out like confetti.....no reported accidents as a result. And thats the key. It's to do with politics. It isn't to do with flight safety. It isn't to do with bringing up the base level of intellect, or demonstrating knowledge....its politics. I say again,if BGS and Oxford etc have been seeing more failures of late....its way more likely that this is down to the system, not the methods and not the teachers.
I've just passed the EASA LST, just in case I need it (I won't....but the company wanted it done to be sure). It was a very straight forward test, as usual (done them before and sat alongside as co jo, for many of my EASA counterparts for their rides). Harder, more complex, more comprehensive than an FAA skills test??? No. Does it show that I'm above FAA level of skill? No. Does it show that I can operate a complex Jet, safer than an FAA pilot? No. Was there anything in it, that demonstrated anything above an FAA test in any way? No.
The irony??? The Examiner is an FAA Examiner, with a kind of validation that allows him to hand out initial issue, recurrent OPC/LPC tickets etc, until the sun comes down. He's never held a European licence of any kind.....although I think he said he had a fishing licence once, when he was based in the UK for a while.....maybe he had a TV licence too....but never a Euro licence that allowed him to fly!!!
Come on....tell me that this isn't politics and bureaucracy at its most laughable!
Seriously though....how many people got grandfather rights? Until a year or so back, how many people who could demonstrate flying an airliner on an FAA ticket for more than 3000 hours or something (exact rule eludes me) got given JAR licenses? I don't know, but they used to hand them out like confetti.....no reported accidents as a result. And thats the key. It's to do with politics. It isn't to do with flight safety. It isn't to do with bringing up the base level of intellect, or demonstrating knowledge....its politics. I say again,if BGS and Oxford etc have been seeing more failures of late....its way more likely that this is down to the system, not the methods and not the teachers.
I've just passed the EASA LST, just in case I need it (I won't....but the company wanted it done to be sure). It was a very straight forward test, as usual (done them before and sat alongside as co jo, for many of my EASA counterparts for their rides). Harder, more complex, more comprehensive than an FAA skills test??? No. Does it show that I'm above FAA level of skill? No. Does it show that I can operate a complex Jet, safer than an FAA pilot? No. Was there anything in it, that demonstrated anything above an FAA test in any way? No.
The irony??? The Examiner is an FAA Examiner, with a kind of validation that allows him to hand out initial issue, recurrent OPC/LPC tickets etc, until the sun comes down. He's never held a European licence of any kind.....although I think he said he had a fishing licence once, when he was based in the UK for a while.....maybe he had a TV licence too....but never a Euro licence that allowed him to fly!!!
Come on....tell me that this isn't politics and bureaucracy at its most laughable!
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U and M
Of course its politics and self interest groups and not safety
The world is becoming a smaller place. Just look at the millions of Syrians pouring through our boarders into the EU and more and more rather than just freedom of movement around Europe there will be a need for freedom of movement of pilots to work wherever.
EASA could have saved a fortune in tax payers money. They had a blank sheet and could have taken the tried and tested FAA system adjusted it to suit Europes specific needs and made compatibility of licenses easy but instead chose to make a complicated mess.
Those interested in safety would have one word HARMONISATION as that is the only way to go where there is no chance of confusion or lack of knowledge worldwide so EASA was a big mistake as are most decisions made by the EU
Why did this happen? to make EASA a large organisation employing many regulators with loads of work with their interests at heart not aviations or safety and these regulations are typical of the nonsense churned out of the EU
Pace
Of course its politics and self interest groups and not safety
The world is becoming a smaller place. Just look at the millions of Syrians pouring through our boarders into the EU and more and more rather than just freedom of movement around Europe there will be a need for freedom of movement of pilots to work wherever.
EASA could have saved a fortune in tax payers money. They had a blank sheet and could have taken the tried and tested FAA system adjusted it to suit Europes specific needs and made compatibility of licenses easy but instead chose to make a complicated mess.
Those interested in safety would have one word HARMONISATION as that is the only way to go where there is no chance of confusion or lack of knowledge worldwide so EASA was a big mistake as are most decisions made by the EU
Why did this happen? to make EASA a large organisation employing many regulators with loads of work with their interests at heart not aviations or safety and these regulations are typical of the nonsense churned out of the EU
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 9th Apr 2016 at 11:34.
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U & M
How many of the 14 exams did you do? How many types did you hold at conversion? How many exams did the FAA make you sit
How many of the 14 exams did you do? How many types did you hold at conversion? How many exams did the FAA make you sit
UK MEP/IR ground exams x 6 - 1988
UK CPL grounds exams x 15 - 1991
UK JAR ATPL ground exams x 10 - 1999
FAA ATP, 121 and 135 ground exams - 1994
All passed first time with no freebies, no grandfather rights (those were only given to US pilots flying temporarily for UK airlines in the 90's) just got on with it and still keep both current so hopefully there won't be a problem with future employment in either part of the world
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ATC Congratulations But this is not the point being made. You obviously had a need for both licenses.
If I was offered a lucrative position flying a EASA reg Jet I would have no qualms doing the financial Maths and time before I was required for that Job and I would expect to gain and hold the required licenses to fly that jet.
Even If I decided my plans were to fly for an AOC because there was more work for me there then again I do the Maths and decide if the large expenditure is worth the result ?
This is very different! I do not want to fly for an AOC and haven't been offered a lucrative Job on an EASA reg jet in nine months time.
I have selected N reg as that was where I saw my opportunities lay within Europe
I financed and achieved all the license s required to fly, be legal and open that market to myself a perfectly legal and legitimate market.
Now I am told I have to achieve a whole host of other licenses which have no validity on the aircraft I fly. Will cost me a lot financially and even more in my time and frankly which have no relevance to what I am doing
Is there any rational thinking concerning aviation safety in this ? or any rational thinking which is anything more that utter nonsense in these regulations ? And morally who pays ? ME and why ? What have I done ?
In the past a lot was done with Grandfather rights in the good old CAA days where legislation changes harmed pilots through no fault of their own. Where are the grandfather rights in this case to keep us in our work ?
As stated if someone with enough money to hire a load of lawyers took this on in the EU courts they would make mincemeat of these stupid regulations
I have been assured of that but don't have the money otherwise I would gladly do that because it is wrong and dishonest
Pace
But this is not the point being made. You obviously had a need for both licenses.If I was offered a lucrative position flying a EASA reg Jet I would have no qualms doing the financial Maths and time before I was required for that Job and I would expect to gain and hold the required licenses to fly that jet.
Even If I decided my plans were to fly for an AOC because there was more work for me there then again I do the Maths and decide if the large expenditure is worth the result ?
This is very different! I do not want to fly for an AOC and haven't been offered a lucrative Job on an EASA reg jet in nine months time.
I have selected N reg as that was where I saw my opportunities lay within Europe
I financed and achieved all the license s required to fly, be legal and open that market to myself a perfectly legal and legitimate market.
Now I am told I have to achieve a whole host of other licenses which have no validity on the aircraft I fly. Will cost me a lot financially and even more in my time and frankly which have no relevance to what I am doing
Is there any rational thinking concerning aviation safety in this ? or any rational thinking which is anything more that utter nonsense in these regulations ? And morally who pays ? ME and why ? What have I done ?
In the past a lot was done with Grandfather rights in the good old CAA days where legislation changes harmed pilots through no fault of their own. Where are the grandfather rights in this case to keep us in our work ?
As stated if someone with enough money to hire a load of lawyers took this on in the EU courts they would make mincemeat of these stupid regulations
I have been assured of that but don't have the money otherwise I would gladly do that because it is wrong and dishonest
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 9th Apr 2016 at 14:49.
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Or rail on here at people who have no influence.
My opinions won't make a scrap of difference other than maybe making a handful of people change their minds but to the vote itself ? No difference as in any other forum here
But I was part of a group who did make legal representation to the Commission and helped with the 2014 delay on this rubbish
But if you are the sort of guy who lies on his back and puts his feet up in the air so be it! You will only get your tummy tickled by whoever
Pace
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Does This regulation apply to pilot domiciled in EU, N aircraft based in EU, owner based in in...?.
The "base" definition is probably something to check out.
I'm not a lawer though
The "base" definition is probably something to check out.
I'm not a lawer though
Attitudes like that Journey Man are responsible for the current mess of our country.
Pace, whilst I sympathise, I have read quite a few of your posts and you've got a very narrow perspective heavily influenced by your non-commercial experience. You make light of issues which negatively affect commercial operators, yet seem surprised that everyone isn't on your side when you disagree with something. You can tickle my tummy anyway, if it makes you feel better.
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Journey Man
Commercial operations ? Expand on that ? These are Private operations and surpringly private jets flown by professional crew have a better safety record than AOC operations!
Maybe because the aircraft are flown by the same crew, better cared for etc but those statistics puzzled the CAA
Those CAA statistics were published here some time back in argument
So really what you are saying is that for a long time AOC ops have viewed private operations as a threat pinching their business?
That was more prevelant years back but not the case nowadays and the recent oversight and regulations are pulling us closer to AOC operations operationally
That is a good thing but please tell me what running dual licences one set which have no validity on FAA aircraft will do for safety ?
Unless you feel an EASA ATP is safer than an FAA ATP ?
That does not stand up to statistical scrutiny either
So this is all about misplaced AOC protectionism and all private jets should be run through an AOC so the AOC operators can make money operating the private jets ???
But all this was discussed 8 years ago since we knew about it. These regulations were put into place in 2011 and have been postponed every year since and now again to 2017 and you don't think there is a problem with the regs ? Which have failed to gain a final stamp of approval by the commission every year for 6 years? So we will have to see how this pans out and deal with it one way or another when things become clearer which at present are far from clear hence the rudderless recent mess
There is a big problem and so there should be
My Postings are of a slightly colourful style some is for effect
JM there is nothing on your profile are you a pilot or involved in operations or just don't want to put anything about yourself ?
Pace
Commercial operations ? Expand on that ? These are Private operations and surpringly private jets flown by professional crew have a better safety record than AOC operations!
Maybe because the aircraft are flown by the same crew, better cared for etc but those statistics puzzled the CAA
Those CAA statistics were published here some time back in argument
So really what you are saying is that for a long time AOC ops have viewed private operations as a threat pinching their business?
That was more prevelant years back but not the case nowadays and the recent oversight and regulations are pulling us closer to AOC operations operationally
That is a good thing but please tell me what running dual licences one set which have no validity on FAA aircraft will do for safety ?
Unless you feel an EASA ATP is safer than an FAA ATP ?
That does not stand up to statistical scrutiny either
So this is all about misplaced AOC protectionism and all private jets should be run through an AOC so the AOC operators can make money operating the private jets ???
But all this was discussed 8 years ago since we knew about it. These regulations were put into place in 2011 and have been postponed every year since and now again to 2017 and you don't think there is a problem with the regs ? Which have failed to gain a final stamp of approval by the commission every year for 6 years? So we will have to see how this pans out and deal with it one way or another when things become clearer which at present are far from clear hence the rudderless recent mess
There is a big problem and so there should be
My Postings are of a slightly colourful style some is for effect
JM there is nothing on your profile are you a pilot or involved in operations or just don't want to put anything about yourself ?
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 10th Apr 2016 at 08:51.
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Journey Man, I am not being overly grandiose, it is just a fact that our country is in a mess. Your attitude is one which I come across most days, ie "just accept everything and don't question it"
I don't understand the rest of your post but if its regarding AOC vs Private then don't get me started. Otherwise I'll have to start quoting stuff like umbrella AOC's lack of oversight and not knowing who is actually operating the aircraft. So probably best you don't go there
I don't understand the rest of your post but if its regarding AOC vs Private then don't get me started. Otherwise I'll have to start quoting stuff like umbrella AOC's lack of oversight and not knowing who is actually operating the aircraft. So probably best you don't go there
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One thing which has not been discussed but which would lead to a solution to protect working pilots on N reg in the EU and don't forget under EU law these people have rights to their employment and income should anyone decide to challenge the regulation is a certain Grandfather right move by EASA.
It would be simple for EASA to issue these working established pilots with RESTRICTED ATPs. Restricted to private operations and not public transport
a simple Air Law exam pass and flight test.
That would be a simple solution and a sensible solution should EASA and the commission wish to continue with this ridiculous dual license fiasco but what about EASA is ever simple or sensible ?
Pace
It would be simple for EASA to issue these working established pilots with RESTRICTED ATPs. Restricted to private operations and not public transport
a simple Air Law exam pass and flight test.
That would be a simple solution and a sensible solution should EASA and the commission wish to continue with this ridiculous dual license fiasco but what about EASA is ever simple or sensible ?
Pace
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Answer this question,
As an EASA or then JAR CPL or ATPL licence holder can you go to the USA and domicile yourself with a foreign registered (read European register) and fly/work in the USA getting paid for your services ? regardless of private or commercial operations, you are paid as a pilot.
I think you know the answer, that is what I believe is the one of the main reasons for the EASA proposals to protect the working rights of the European pilots, the same reason why you cannot do the above scenario.
As an EASA or then JAR CPL or ATPL licence holder can you go to the USA and domicile yourself with a foreign registered (read European register) and fly/work in the USA getting paid for your services ? regardless of private or commercial operations, you are paid as a pilot.
I think you know the answer, that is what I believe is the one of the main reasons for the EASA proposals to protect the working rights of the European pilots, the same reason why you cannot do the above scenario.
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Answer this question,
As an EASA or then JAR CPL or ATPL licence holder can you go to the USA and domicile yourself with a foreign registered (read European register) and fly/work in the USA getting paid for your services ? regardless of private or commercial operations, you are paid as a pilot.
I think you know the answer, that is what I believe is the one of the main reasons for the EASA proposals to protect the working rights of the European pilots, the same reason why you cannot do the above scenario.
As an EASA or then JAR CPL or ATPL licence holder can you go to the USA and domicile yourself with a foreign registered (read European register) and fly/work in the USA getting paid for your services ? regardless of private or commercial operations, you are paid as a pilot.
I think you know the answer, that is what I believe is the one of the main reasons for the EASA proposals to protect the working rights of the European pilots, the same reason why you cannot do the above scenario.
That has nothing to do with aviation laws or the FAA but USA Immigration and working restrictions which effect any ability to work in the USA in any occupation not just aviation there is nothing to stop you keeping a EASA registered aircraft in the USA but I cannot imagine why many would want to do that
That was not the case in Europe N registered aircraft have been prolific for decades and remember another BIG difference Europe is a mix of separate countries with separate governments.
The USA is the united states of America with one government.
There are many in the EU who would love the EU to be THE UNITED STATES OF EUROPE with a central government but thank God we are not there yet
N reg and other 3rd country reg were accepted legal practice for longer than the EU has been in existence so legally accepted practice historically
Being legally accepted practice it was quite legitimate for pilots to set up business and to work within the EU
You cannot just with the flick of a pen say forget 40 years accepted practice we don't want to play ball with you anymore your out of a job without holding some responsibility to those people and ensuring they are accommodated in a reasonable way?
What would be classified as reasonable? taking six months off to do a full time course with NO job on your return ?
Cost? what would be classified as reasonable cost for a pilot to attain those dual licenses? Remember the pilots have done nothing illegal and have ran legitimate and legal business and so cannot be penalised in an unreasonable way
At least under existing EU laws and human right laws
The two situations are not comparable
Pace
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Pace
That has nothing to do with aviation laws or the FAA but USA Immigration and working restrictions
there is nothing to stop you keeping a EASA registered aircraft in the USA but I cannot imagine why many would want to do that
That has nothing to do with aviation laws or the FAA but USA Immigration and working restrictions
there is nothing to stop you keeping a EASA registered aircraft in the USA but I cannot imagine why many would want to do that
You will find that an AOC operated aircraft can fly to the USA with pax but cannot pickup new pax in the USA to fly to another US destination, private or commercial, the FAA/US government are protecting their own system and citizens.
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You will find that an AOC operated aircraft can fly to the USA with pax but cannot pickup new pax in the USA to fly to another US destination, private or commercial, the FAA/US government are protecting their own system and citizens.
Again you are talking Public transport ))
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 10th Apr 2016 at 10:57.
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Apples and Oranges again Above The Clouds. What you mention has been done to death on other threads. There are of course third country private aircraft permanently based in the USA as quoted by others living there
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Ask the IOM how many M reg aircraft are now based in USA.....startling number actually and, Pace is bang on....immigration stop FAA pilots from other parts of the World from working and being domiciled there. I personally, missed out narrowly on a Falcon gig in Cali' because the company couldn't demonstrate that they needed to bring a pilot in from Europe to fill a seat.....gutted....would have been good gig whilst it lasted.
I love this "Tit for Tat" kind of exchange re licensing. It always comes down to "I had to do the 14 exams (or more)....its not fair that maybe an FAA pilot could get a licence and NOT do them...."!! Leave that kind of thing in the playground....we are, nearly all of us, grown ups! Again, I agree with Pace (sorry, but he's preaching what I have said for years)....issue a Restricted ATP, based on an FAA licence (thats current etc) and get the pilots to sit Air Law....and happy days! I don't want to fly for an AOC....or any kind of air carrier. You can keep that, thanks. What makes anyone think that because they have an EASA licence and are a European, that they have more right to my job than I do....as an FAA licence holder (just as hard to obtain from a practical viewpoint....and a practical, relative based exam for an ATP and initial IR issue)??? Riddle me this.....if I get a Part FCL....which one am I flying on? Both? Do I take off in France on my Part FCL and land in Teterboro on my FAA?? Or vice versa? At which point in flight am I swapping??? Just simply, a load of crap!
ATC....are you serious....the EU are trying to protect the rights of EU citizens with their interference in the third country licensing "thing"????? What a joke....! It's just more
from yet another European group, interfering to try and justify the expense they make the EU incur......Brexit? Damned straight!!!!!
This shouldnt even be a debate. Pilots should be focussing on real World, important matters....that may affect the industry for better or worse. Making pilots change licences for absolutely no safety gain, or ANY gain....is an absolutely disgusting carry on!!
I love this "Tit for Tat" kind of exchange re licensing. It always comes down to "I had to do the 14 exams (or more)....its not fair that maybe an FAA pilot could get a licence and NOT do them...."!! Leave that kind of thing in the playground....we are, nearly all of us, grown ups! Again, I agree with Pace (sorry, but he's preaching what I have said for years)....issue a Restricted ATP, based on an FAA licence (thats current etc) and get the pilots to sit Air Law....and happy days! I don't want to fly for an AOC....or any kind of air carrier. You can keep that, thanks. What makes anyone think that because they have an EASA licence and are a European, that they have more right to my job than I do....as an FAA licence holder (just as hard to obtain from a practical viewpoint....and a practical, relative based exam for an ATP and initial IR issue)??? Riddle me this.....if I get a Part FCL....which one am I flying on? Both? Do I take off in France on my Part FCL and land in Teterboro on my FAA?? Or vice versa? At which point in flight am I swapping??? Just simply, a load of crap!
ATC....are you serious....the EU are trying to protect the rights of EU citizens with their interference in the third country licensing "thing"????? What a joke....! It's just more
from yet another European group, interfering to try and justify the expense they make the EU incur......Brexit? Damned straight!!!!!This shouldnt even be a debate. Pilots should be focussing on real World, important matters....that may affect the industry for better or worse. Making pilots change licences for absolutely no safety gain, or ANY gain....is an absolutely disgusting carry on!!
Last edited by Triple Nickel 8 Ball; 10th Apr 2016 at 22:26.