Phenom 300, XLS+ your feedback
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Phenom 300, XLS+ your feedback
Hello Ladies and Gents,
I went through lots of Phenom 300 and XLS+ comments and articles and need some help of those who had/have opportunity to drive them
Our mission profile doesn't matter as much, basically we do small hops like 200NM and up to 700NM 4-6PAX, rarely 900-1000 NM 4PAX.
Currently we operate King Air 90GTx and upgrade is for cabin size, speed, range and toilet
I would love to fly XLS+ but... I'd like to show my boss straight facts.
Aircraft will be private used, ~150hours/year and probably we'll look for used 1-2 year old a/c.
I know how those two are shown by Embraer and Cessna (and that XLS is class higher) but I'd like to hear your feedback (Phenom 300 especially).
As for the Phenom 300 I've heard that it has rather wide ground turn radius, we operate to 35m wide runway (so I guess not a big deal with backtrack) but this airport has really narrow taxiways.
How does Phenom's brake by wire (+spoilers) behave during landing? wet/contaminated runway?
How does those two looks in term of reliability?
What was your longest flight/ what payload?
As we went through the maintenance numbers $$ it looks like Phenom 300 should be cheaper in MX than our King Air as Phenom 300 program covers parts, labour, parts shipping etc. But how does it looks like after 5 years? Is it still so cheap?
In that aspect XLS+ will be more expensive as there is additional APU program hour rate and you have to pay for MX labour.
I know the XLS will be more expensive to operate but maybe it'll be worth its price when compared to Phenom?
I will really appreciate your help
I went through lots of Phenom 300 and XLS+ comments and articles and need some help of those who had/have opportunity to drive them
Our mission profile doesn't matter as much, basically we do small hops like 200NM and up to 700NM 4-6PAX, rarely 900-1000 NM 4PAX.
Currently we operate King Air 90GTx and upgrade is for cabin size, speed, range and toilet
I would love to fly XLS+ but... I'd like to show my boss straight facts.
Aircraft will be private used, ~150hours/year and probably we'll look for used 1-2 year old a/c.
I know how those two are shown by Embraer and Cessna (and that XLS is class higher) but I'd like to hear your feedback (Phenom 300 especially).
As for the Phenom 300 I've heard that it has rather wide ground turn radius, we operate to 35m wide runway (so I guess not a big deal with backtrack) but this airport has really narrow taxiways.
How does Phenom's brake by wire (+spoilers) behave during landing? wet/contaminated runway?
How does those two looks in term of reliability?
What was your longest flight/ what payload?
As we went through the maintenance numbers $$ it looks like Phenom 300 should be cheaper in MX than our King Air as Phenom 300 program covers parts, labour, parts shipping etc. But how does it looks like after 5 years? Is it still so cheap?
In that aspect XLS+ will be more expensive as there is additional APU program hour rate and you have to pay for MX labour.
I know the XLS will be more expensive to operate but maybe it'll be worth its price when compared to Phenom?
I will really appreciate your help
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vmc
Just wondering where you intend to keep such a lovely machine?
Re Embraer you should talk to flairjet as they have a 300 now. Also for XLS G-EYUP is on the Market - v nice example.
Re Embraer you should talk to flairjet as they have a 300 now. Also for XLS G-EYUP is on the Market - v nice example.
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@VMC, it will be based in central europe
@chr, we had a look at LJ75 and came to conclusion that LJ70 would be better for us but... LJ70 has no APU so with this price XLS+ is better
@chr, we had a look at LJ75 and came to conclusion that LJ70 would be better for us but... LJ70 has no APU so with this price XLS+ is better
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Thanks Pascualito,
we sat in one, LJ60XR is a real bargain indeed but... XLS and Phenom have lots of luggage space. We do rather short trips but with tonnes of luggage
DCTunltd
we sat in one, LJ60XR is a real bargain indeed but... XLS and Phenom have lots of luggage space. We do rather short trips but with tonnes of luggage
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Options for XLS+ maintenance facilities are huge. If you go tech you've a good chance of finding someone nearby to get you going again. How many Phenom 300 engineers out there? XLS+ is a proven machine nicely tweaked from the XL to the XLS and then a big leap forward with Proline 21 so design issues have been ironed out. Phenom will have issues. I don't know what the OEM support is like but when the bog wagon trashes your wing tip, Cessna will have a repair scheme or wing tip removal option to get you going again as it's happened before, lots. XLS+ parts available at several facilities in all the major EU countries and a new Dusseldorf stock holding to try and match the Dassault next day system.
The problem you'll have is what you're finding already, just not enough Phenom 300 info out there. NJ getting them makes sense for bean counters but they don't allow for the AOG's that don't happen on the Cessna because someone was available to sort. Phenom looks a great machine, I'd look at the 300S+ in five years or so.
The problem you'll have is what you're finding already, just not enough Phenom 300 info out there. NJ getting them makes sense for bean counters but they don't allow for the AOG's that don't happen on the Cessna because someone was available to sort. Phenom looks a great machine, I'd look at the 300S+ in five years or so.
There is a similar thread on a big US based airline pilot forum's fractional sub-section.
The consensus seems to be that the Phenom 300 is a great aircraft and flies way nicer than an XLS. That's also what I have heard from every pilot I spoke to who has flown both (quite a few).
It's been around for a few years now and most of the bugs have been ironed out. It is very reliable. There are plenty of maintenance options in Europe, but of course not as many as for Citations. Off the top of my head I know Paris, Cologne, Stansted, St.Gallen/Altenrhein and Prague. (edited to say: I just checked and there is one more in Europe and that's in EDGS)
To be fair the Excel/XLS has two main advantages: Bigger cabin and an APU. Almost everything else the Phenom beats it. I do not work for Embraer by the way.
The consensus seems to be that the Phenom 300 is a great aircraft and flies way nicer than an XLS. That's also what I have heard from every pilot I spoke to who has flown both (quite a few).
It's been around for a few years now and most of the bugs have been ironed out. It is very reliable. There are plenty of maintenance options in Europe, but of course not as many as for Citations. Off the top of my head I know Paris, Cologne, Stansted, St.Gallen/Altenrhein and Prague. (edited to say: I just checked and there is one more in Europe and that's in EDGS)
To be fair the Excel/XLS has two main advantages: Bigger cabin and an APU. Almost everything else the Phenom beats it. I do not work for Embraer by the way.
Last edited by 733driver; 17th May 2015 at 14:40.
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Brizeguy, I came to the similar conclusion, Phenom might be a good airplane to look for... in some future, especially when buying used one.
733, as I spoke with some pilots they told me to look carefully at the earlier s/n Phenoms due to those bugs while XLS+ is like v2.0 or even 3.0 as it's derived from XLS and XL.
733, as I spoke with some pilots they told me to look carefully at the earlier s/n Phenoms due to those bugs while XLS+ is like v2.0 or even 3.0 as it's derived from XLS and XL.
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We had a similiar dilema and we bought ... L75 :-)
What has your experience been? I was talking with a guy who knows very well one of the first ones to come to Europe and he says that the aircraft was a technical nightmare and always going wrong.
I guess this is to be expected with a new type though, for the first few months.
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Hi
Looking at your mission profile both aircraft are overkill! 4 PAX and you need a XLS with 200 nm and usual 700 nm legs?
Probably the Kingair or a CJ2 if you really want a Jet are your best options and more than capable for the work required.
Cessna will hold better residual values and and far more abundant servicing although I appreciate the Phenom is a good aircraft.
I think you should ask yourselves why you want either the Phenom or an XLS?
If its just the Image or ramp presence rather than what you need go for it but don't loose site of the fact that it is overkill and an expensive overkill at that.
Pace
Looking at your mission profile both aircraft are overkill! 4 PAX and you need a XLS with 200 nm and usual 700 nm legs?
Probably the Kingair or a CJ2 if you really want a Jet are your best options and more than capable for the work required.
Cessna will hold better residual values and and far more abundant servicing although I appreciate the Phenom is a good aircraft.
I think you should ask yourselves why you want either the Phenom or an XLS?
If its just the Image or ramp presence rather than what you need go for it but don't loose site of the fact that it is overkill and an expensive overkill at that.
Pace
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well , yes at the begining they had a lot of problems with , anyway now major issues have been solved .
I belive as every new aircraft must have a child age , no matter it's a Gulfstream , Embraer , Cessna etc.
We also had some problems at the begining , some relay need to be replaced , hyd.oil leak from pump but at the general aircraft is ok and meet our requirements .
Bombardier technical support is ok , anyway we have full parts and labour program coverage
BTW don't belive marketing brochures - it can't depart fully loaded with full tanks ;-)
I belive as every new aircraft must have a child age , no matter it's a Gulfstream , Embraer , Cessna etc.
We also had some problems at the begining , some relay need to be replaced , hyd.oil leak from pump but at the general aircraft is ok and meet our requirements .
Bombardier technical support is ok , anyway we have full parts and labour program coverage
BTW don't belive marketing brochures - it can't depart fully loaded with full tanks ;-)
