Electronic LogBook, EASA Approved?
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Electronic LogBook, EASA Approved?
Good Morning,
I would have a question for you all.
I am using an electronic logbook since 5 or 6 years, the one i personally use is LogTen Pro. I find this kind of books very useful and dependable.
Discussing with some colleagues it came to my attention that the E-LogBokks may not be approved by EASA and they may cause some issues in the case of a SAFA Inspection.
Can you help me ?
I would have a question for you all.
I am using an electronic logbook since 5 or 6 years, the one i personally use is LogTen Pro. I find this kind of books very useful and dependable.
Discussing with some colleagues it came to my attention that the E-LogBokks may not be approved by EASA and they may cause some issues in the case of a SAFA Inspection.
Can you help me ?
I have never heard of that - I use LogTenPro too, and has never been an issue so far in EASA land.
I did have a problem, though, in Africa. The Kenyan CAA refused to accept my electronic logbook, even when printed out. I had to get a secretary to laboriously transcribe all my records for last six years into a paper logbook. Ironically, the KCAA also insisted that I give a highly detailed breakdown of all my hours such as night PIC cross country by every class of aircraft and hoc - with a paper logbook extracting all this information is almost impossible, but it is a breeze with an electronic logbook.
I am always a bit surprised to find pilots who still use paper logbooks these days. Electronic is so much better. With LogTen Pro you there is even an add on app called "Flight Timer" which uses the iPad sensors to detect when you start taxi, when you take off, when you land, and when you shut down the engine, and then exports the times and ICAO codes directly to your logbook. Far more accurate than trying to fill out your paper logbook at the end of a long day when you can hardly remember where you've been, let alone the timings.
I did have a problem, though, in Africa. The Kenyan CAA refused to accept my electronic logbook, even when printed out. I had to get a secretary to laboriously transcribe all my records for last six years into a paper logbook. Ironically, the KCAA also insisted that I give a highly detailed breakdown of all my hours such as night PIC cross country by every class of aircraft and hoc - with a paper logbook extracting all this information is almost impossible, but it is a breeze with an electronic logbook.
I am always a bit surprised to find pilots who still use paper logbooks these days. Electronic is so much better. With LogTen Pro you there is even an add on app called "Flight Timer" which uses the iPad sensors to detect when you start taxi, when you take off, when you land, and when you shut down the engine, and then exports the times and ICAO codes directly to your logbook. Far more accurate than trying to fill out your paper logbook at the end of a long day when you can hardly remember where you've been, let alone the timings.
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Personal Logbooks are not a requirement to be carried on board, unless you are a student pilot. Your ATPL and Type rating proves you have the flight time to fly the aircraft.
That said I also use LogTen Pro on my iPhone and Mac.
That said I also use LogTen Pro on my iPhone and Mac.
Last edited by noneya; 20th Sep 2013 at 14:23.
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an add on app called "Flight Timer" which uses the iPad sensors to detect when you start taxi, when you take off, when you land, and when you shut down the engine, and then exports the times and ICAO codes
And no, theres no requirement to carry a log book for a ramp check - Why would you carry a very valuable document around the world? Mine would have been stolen twice over the year if I had done that. I have also never had any problem in CAA, Jar, EASA or a number of other authorities, with my computer print out.
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Under EASA rules as said above you do not need to carry any personal logbook during flight operations. In fact authorities prefer you do not carry it as they can easier get to recency figures if it is somewhere safe in case of a crash.
That said, if you fly under in AOC operation you do not need to keep a logbook at all, the operator however is required to keep a detailed log not only for each aircraft but for each pilot as well and is required to hand them out on request of either the relevant authority or the pilot.
Still not a bad idea to keep your personal log, and logten is a perfectly fine way to do so. By synchronizing different devices you can keep several up to date copies backed up as well, for example i have it on both my ipad and iphone as well as on my macbook which in turns backs it up every hour to a timecapsule.
That said, if you fly under in AOC operation you do not need to keep a logbook at all, the operator however is required to keep a detailed log not only for each aircraft but for each pilot as well and is required to hand them out on request of either the relevant authority or the pilot.
Still not a bad idea to keep your personal log, and logten is a perfectly fine way to do so. By synchronizing different devices you can keep several up to date copies backed up as well, for example i have it on both my ipad and iphone as well as on my macbook which in turns backs it up every hour to a timecapsule.
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Recording of flight time
Pilot Logbook is required!
Whether or not it is kept in electronic format is up to the Authority. However, it only becomes a legal document when printed and signed.
FCL.050 Recording of flight time
The pilot shall keep a reliable record of the details of all flights flown in a form and manner established by the competent authority.
AMC1 FCL.050 Recording of flight time
GENERAL
(a) The record of the flights flown should contain at least the following information:
(1) personal details: name(s) and address of the pilot;
(2) for each flight:
(i) name(s) of PIC;
(ii) date of flight;
(iii) place and time of departure and arrival;
(iv) type, including make, model and variant, and registration of the aircraft;
(v) indication if the aircraft is SE or ME, if applicable;
(vi) total time of flight;
(vii) accumulated total time of flight.
(3) for each FSTD session, if applicable:
(i) type and qualification number of the training device;
(ii) FSTD instruction;
(iii) date;
(iv) total time of session;
(v) accumulated total time.
(4) details on pilot function, namely PIC, including solo, SPIC and PICUS time, co-pilot, dual, FI or FE;
(5) Operational conditions, namely if the operation takes place at night, or is conducted under instrument flight rules.
(b) Logging of time:
(1) PIC flight time:
(i) the holder of a licence may log as PIC time all of the flight time during which he or she is the PIC;
(ii) the applicant for or the holder of a pilot licence may log as PIC time all solo flight time, flight time as SPIC and flight time under supervision provided that such SPIC time and flight time under supervision are countersigned by the instructor;
(iii) the holder of an instructor certificate may log as PIC all flight time during which he or she acts as an instructor in an aircraft;
(iv) the holder of an examiner’s certificate may log as PIC all flight time during which he or she occupies a pilot’s seat and acts as an examiner in an aircraft;
(v) a co-pilot acting as PICUS on an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or as required by operational requirements provided that such PICUS time is countersigned by the PIC;
(vi) if the holder of a licence carries out a number of flights upon the same day returning on each occasion to the same place of departure and the interval between successive flights does not exceed 30 minutes, such series of flights may be recorded as a single entry.
(2) co-pilot flight time: the holder of a pilot licence occupying a pilot seat as co-pilot may log all flight time as co-pilot flight time on an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted;
(3) cruise relief co-pilot flight time: a cruise relief co-pilot may log all flight time as co-pilot when occupying a pilot’s seat;
(4) instruction time: a summary of all time logged by an applicant for a licence or rating as flight instruction, instrument flight instruction, instrument ground time, etc., may be logged if certified by the appropriately rated or authorised instructor from whom it was received;
(5) PICUS flight time: provided that the method of supervision is acceptable to the competent authority, a co-pilot may log as PIC flight time flown as PICUS when all the duties and functions of PIC on that flight were carried out in such a way that the intervention of the PIC in the interest of safety was not required.
(c) Format of the record:
(1) details of flights flown under commercial air transport may be recorded in a computerised format maintained by the operator. In this case an operator should make the records of all flights operated by the pilot, including differences and familiarisation training, available upon request to the flight crew member concerned;
(2) for other types of flight, the pilot should record the details of the flights flown in the following logbook format. For sailplanes and balloons, a suitable format should be used that contains the relevant items mentioned in
(a) and additional information specific to the type of operation.
(d) FCL.050 requires holders of a pilot licence to record details of all flights flown. This logbook enables pilot licence holders to record flying experience in a manner which will facilitate this process while providing a permanent record of the licence holders flying. Pilots who fly regularly aeroplanes and helicopters or other aircraft categories are recommended to maintain separate logbooks for each aircraft category.
(e) Flight crew logbook entries should be made as soon as practicable after any flight undertaken. All entries in the logbook should be made in ink or indelible pencil.
(f) The particulars of every flight in the course of which the holder of a flight crew licence acts as a member of the operating crew of an aircraft are to be recorded in the appropriate columns using one line for each flight, provided that if an aircraft carries out a number of flights upon the same day returning on each occasion to the same place of departure and the interval between successive flights does not exceed 30 minutes, such series of flights may be recorded as a single entry.
(g) Flight time is recorded:
(1) for aeroplanes, touring motor gliders and powered-lift aircraft, from the moment an aircraft first moves to taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight;
(2) for helicopters, from the moment a helicopter’s rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped;
(3) for airships, from the moment an airship is released from the mast to taking off until the moment the airship finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and is secured on the mast;
(h) When an aircraft carries two or more pilots as members of the operating crew, one of them shall, before the flight commences, be designated by the operator as the aircraft PIC, according to operational requirements, who may delegate the conduct of the flight to another suitably qualified pilot. All flying carried out as PIC is entered in the logbook as ‘PIC’. A pilot flying as ‘PICUS’ or ‘SPIC’ enters flying time as ‘PIC’ but all such entries are to be certified by the PIC or FI in the ‘Remarks’ column of the logbook. (i) Notes on recording of flight time:
(1) column 1: enter the date (dd/mm/yy) on which the flight commences;
(2) column 2 or 3: enter the place of departure and destination either in full or the internationally recognised three or four letter designator. All times should be in UTC;
(3) column 5: indicate whether the operation was SP or MP, and for SP operation whether SE or ME;
(4) column 6: total time of flight may be entered in hours and minutes or decimal notation as desired;
(5) column 7: enter the name(s) of PIC or SELF as appropriate;
(6) column 8: indicate the number of landings as pilot flying by day or night;
(7) column 9: enter flight time undertaken at night or under instrument flight rules if applicable;
(8) column 10: pilot function time:
(i) enter flight time as PIC, SPIC and PICUS as PIC;
(ii) all time recorded as SPIC or PICUS is countersigned by the aircraft PIC/FI in the ‘remarks’ (column 12);
(iii) instructor time should be recorded as appropriate and also entered as PIC.
(9) column 11: FSTD:
(i) for any FSTD enter the type of aircraft and qualification number of the device. For other flight training devices enter either FNPT I or FNPT II as appropriate;
(ii) total time of session includes all exercises carried out in the device, including pre- and after-flight checks;
(iii) enter the type of exercise performed in the ‘remarks’ (column 12), for example operator proficiency check, revalidation.
(10) column 12: the ‘remarks’ column may be used to record details of the flight at the holder’s discretion. The following entries, however, should always be made:
(i) instrument flight time undertaken as part of the training for a licence or rating;
(ii) details of all skill tests and proficiency checks;
(iii) signature of PIC if the pilot is recording flight time as SPIC or PICUS;
(iv) signature of instructor if flight is part of an SEP or TMG class rating revalidation.
(j) When each page is completed, accumulated flight time or hours should be entered in the appropriate columns and certified by the pilot in the ‘remarks’ column.
g5tom
Whether or not it is kept in electronic format is up to the Authority. However, it only becomes a legal document when printed and signed.
FCL.050 Recording of flight time
The pilot shall keep a reliable record of the details of all flights flown in a form and manner established by the competent authority.
AMC1 FCL.050 Recording of flight time
GENERAL
(a) The record of the flights flown should contain at least the following information:
(1) personal details: name(s) and address of the pilot;
(2) for each flight:
(i) name(s) of PIC;
(ii) date of flight;
(iii) place and time of departure and arrival;
(iv) type, including make, model and variant, and registration of the aircraft;
(v) indication if the aircraft is SE or ME, if applicable;
(vi) total time of flight;
(vii) accumulated total time of flight.
(3) for each FSTD session, if applicable:
(i) type and qualification number of the training device;
(ii) FSTD instruction;
(iii) date;
(iv) total time of session;
(v) accumulated total time.
(4) details on pilot function, namely PIC, including solo, SPIC and PICUS time, co-pilot, dual, FI or FE;
(5) Operational conditions, namely if the operation takes place at night, or is conducted under instrument flight rules.
(b) Logging of time:
(1) PIC flight time:
(i) the holder of a licence may log as PIC time all of the flight time during which he or she is the PIC;
(ii) the applicant for or the holder of a pilot licence may log as PIC time all solo flight time, flight time as SPIC and flight time under supervision provided that such SPIC time and flight time under supervision are countersigned by the instructor;
(iii) the holder of an instructor certificate may log as PIC all flight time during which he or she acts as an instructor in an aircraft;
(iv) the holder of an examiner’s certificate may log as PIC all flight time during which he or she occupies a pilot’s seat and acts as an examiner in an aircraft;
(v) a co-pilot acting as PICUS on an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or as required by operational requirements provided that such PICUS time is countersigned by the PIC;
(vi) if the holder of a licence carries out a number of flights upon the same day returning on each occasion to the same place of departure and the interval between successive flights does not exceed 30 minutes, such series of flights may be recorded as a single entry.
(2) co-pilot flight time: the holder of a pilot licence occupying a pilot seat as co-pilot may log all flight time as co-pilot flight time on an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted;
(3) cruise relief co-pilot flight time: a cruise relief co-pilot may log all flight time as co-pilot when occupying a pilot’s seat;
(4) instruction time: a summary of all time logged by an applicant for a licence or rating as flight instruction, instrument flight instruction, instrument ground time, etc., may be logged if certified by the appropriately rated or authorised instructor from whom it was received;
(5) PICUS flight time: provided that the method of supervision is acceptable to the competent authority, a co-pilot may log as PIC flight time flown as PICUS when all the duties and functions of PIC on that flight were carried out in such a way that the intervention of the PIC in the interest of safety was not required.
(c) Format of the record:
(1) details of flights flown under commercial air transport may be recorded in a computerised format maintained by the operator. In this case an operator should make the records of all flights operated by the pilot, including differences and familiarisation training, available upon request to the flight crew member concerned;
(2) for other types of flight, the pilot should record the details of the flights flown in the following logbook format. For sailplanes and balloons, a suitable format should be used that contains the relevant items mentioned in
(a) and additional information specific to the type of operation.
(d) FCL.050 requires holders of a pilot licence to record details of all flights flown. This logbook enables pilot licence holders to record flying experience in a manner which will facilitate this process while providing a permanent record of the licence holders flying. Pilots who fly regularly aeroplanes and helicopters or other aircraft categories are recommended to maintain separate logbooks for each aircraft category.
(e) Flight crew logbook entries should be made as soon as practicable after any flight undertaken. All entries in the logbook should be made in ink or indelible pencil.
(f) The particulars of every flight in the course of which the holder of a flight crew licence acts as a member of the operating crew of an aircraft are to be recorded in the appropriate columns using one line for each flight, provided that if an aircraft carries out a number of flights upon the same day returning on each occasion to the same place of departure and the interval between successive flights does not exceed 30 minutes, such series of flights may be recorded as a single entry.
(g) Flight time is recorded:
(1) for aeroplanes, touring motor gliders and powered-lift aircraft, from the moment an aircraft first moves to taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight;
(2) for helicopters, from the moment a helicopter’s rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped;
(3) for airships, from the moment an airship is released from the mast to taking off until the moment the airship finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and is secured on the mast;
(h) When an aircraft carries two or more pilots as members of the operating crew, one of them shall, before the flight commences, be designated by the operator as the aircraft PIC, according to operational requirements, who may delegate the conduct of the flight to another suitably qualified pilot. All flying carried out as PIC is entered in the logbook as ‘PIC’. A pilot flying as ‘PICUS’ or ‘SPIC’ enters flying time as ‘PIC’ but all such entries are to be certified by the PIC or FI in the ‘Remarks’ column of the logbook. (i) Notes on recording of flight time:
(1) column 1: enter the date (dd/mm/yy) on which the flight commences;
(2) column 2 or 3: enter the place of departure and destination either in full or the internationally recognised three or four letter designator. All times should be in UTC;
(3) column 5: indicate whether the operation was SP or MP, and for SP operation whether SE or ME;
(4) column 6: total time of flight may be entered in hours and minutes or decimal notation as desired;
(5) column 7: enter the name(s) of PIC or SELF as appropriate;
(6) column 8: indicate the number of landings as pilot flying by day or night;
(7) column 9: enter flight time undertaken at night or under instrument flight rules if applicable;
(8) column 10: pilot function time:
(i) enter flight time as PIC, SPIC and PICUS as PIC;
(ii) all time recorded as SPIC or PICUS is countersigned by the aircraft PIC/FI in the ‘remarks’ (column 12);
(iii) instructor time should be recorded as appropriate and also entered as PIC.
(9) column 11: FSTD:
(i) for any FSTD enter the type of aircraft and qualification number of the device. For other flight training devices enter either FNPT I or FNPT II as appropriate;
(ii) total time of session includes all exercises carried out in the device, including pre- and after-flight checks;
(iii) enter the type of exercise performed in the ‘remarks’ (column 12), for example operator proficiency check, revalidation.
(10) column 12: the ‘remarks’ column may be used to record details of the flight at the holder’s discretion. The following entries, however, should always be made:
(i) instrument flight time undertaken as part of the training for a licence or rating;
(ii) details of all skill tests and proficiency checks;
(iii) signature of PIC if the pilot is recording flight time as SPIC or PICUS;
(iv) signature of instructor if flight is part of an SEP or TMG class rating revalidation.
(j) When each page is completed, accumulated flight time or hours should be entered in the appropriate columns and certified by the pilot in the ‘remarks’ column.
g5tom
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Obligation to carry and present documents
Hi All
With regard to the question; whether or not a logbook has to be carried on board, I found the following:
FCL.045 Obligation to carry and present documents
(a) A valid licence and a valid medical certificate shall always be carried by the pilot when exercising the privileges of the licence.
(b) The pilot shall also carry a personal identification document containing his/her photo.
(c) A pilot or a student pilot shall without undue delay present his/her flight time record for inspection upon request by an authorised representative of a competent authority.
(d) A student pilot shall carry on all solo cross-country flights evidence of the authorisation required by FCL.020(a).
In the view of an OPS-inspector, without undue delay might mean before he leaves/releases the aircraft!
Cheers,
g5tom
With regard to the question; whether or not a logbook has to be carried on board, I found the following:
FCL.045 Obligation to carry and present documents
(a) A valid licence and a valid medical certificate shall always be carried by the pilot when exercising the privileges of the licence.
(b) The pilot shall also carry a personal identification document containing his/her photo.
(c) A pilot or a student pilot shall without undue delay present his/her flight time record for inspection upon request by an authorised representative of a competent authority.
(d) A student pilot shall carry on all solo cross-country flights evidence of the authorisation required by FCL.020(a).
In the view of an OPS-inspector, without undue delay might mean before he leaves/releases the aircraft!
Cheers,
g5tom
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They can have a squizz at my Log Ten Pro on my onboard iPad. Cross check it with the current tech log if they don't believe me. Any other requests regarding a logbook will be met with a presentation of my balls for oral suction to be applied.
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Inspection of pilot log book is not on the SAFA checklist. If they wanted to see mine I would invite them to visit me at a time and place convenient to me, and then to take the offer or leave it!
Failure to show them a log book does not constitute a finding of any category!
Failure to show them a log book does not constitute a finding of any category!
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AMC FCL.050 states as well:
In this case no pilot logbook has to be maintained by the pilot for those flights.
Actually that is required by local rule as the norm over here. Undue delay in producing the logbook from the operator means within three days.
(c) Format of the record:
(1) details of flights flown under commercial air transport may be
recorded in a computerised format maintained by the
operator. In this case an operator should make the records of
all flights operated by the pilot, including differences and
familiarisation training, available upon request to the flight
crew member concerned;
(1) details of flights flown under commercial air transport may be
recorded in a computerised format maintained by the
operator. In this case an operator should make the records of
all flights operated by the pilot, including differences and
familiarisation training, available upon request to the flight
crew member concerned;
Actually that is required by local rule as the norm over here. Undue delay in producing the logbook from the operator means within three days.
Last edited by Denti; 20th Sep 2013 at 18:35.
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Inspection of pilot log book is not on the SAFA checklist.
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In the view of an OPS-inspector, without undue delay might mean before he leaves/releases the aircraft
I have also kept an electronic logbook for ages. Simple Excel. The UK CAA wants me to self-certify and sign every page of my print-out as true and correct, but has accepted it for everything so far.
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In the view of an OPS-inspector, without undue delay might mean before he leaves/rele
Cobalt,
we had a case in France where a Pilot had to run into the FBO, print and sign the logbook page to prove the 3 sectors within the last 90 days before they were released!!
Cheers,
g5tom
we had a case in France where a Pilot had to run into the FBO, print and sign the logbook page to prove the 3 sectors within the last 90 days before they were released!!
Cheers,
g5tom
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G5Tom,
I had a fool once tell me that I had to carry my logbook and that he was not "releasing me" until I did so. I told him that he had no authority, and that if he had a problem, he could call the police, as I was departing in 10 minutes. We loaded and left as promised. He went to the tower and they told him basically to piss off. He actually tried to get them to refuse me a clearance.
I received a letter thereafter, and sent them a link to my LogTenPro, and thereafter, not a word.
They sometimes do not know their own rules and a logbook is NOT required to be carried. Simple as that. Think about it......extremely valuable information, carried about could be destroyed in any accident, where it would suddenly have an interest!
Been SAFA checked now 5 times and never asked for a logbook. The other dude was a local on his own little rampage and the people back home in the office set him right.
I had a fool once tell me that I had to carry my logbook and that he was not "releasing me" until I did so. I told him that he had no authority, and that if he had a problem, he could call the police, as I was departing in 10 minutes. We loaded and left as promised. He went to the tower and they told him basically to piss off. He actually tried to get them to refuse me a clearance.
I received a letter thereafter, and sent them a link to my LogTenPro, and thereafter, not a word.
They sometimes do not know their own rules and a logbook is NOT required to be carried. Simple as that. Think about it......extremely valuable information, carried about could be destroyed in any accident, where it would suddenly have an interest!
Been SAFA checked now 5 times and never asked for a logbook. The other dude was a local on his own little rampage and the people back home in the office set him right.
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To the OP
There is no requirement, by SAFA, EASA or ICAO that requires you have an "approved" logbook. All that matters is that you have it in the approved format. An excel spreadsheet is perfectly adequate. It may be that some remote countries don't believe that LogTen Pro is suitable but certainly the UK CAA does and almost certainly any EASA/FAA/TCA controlled territories will be.
That it be presentable on demand is open for debate, I don't carry mine with me, it would get wrecked! So I use Log Ten Pro, print out then sign and stick it in my logbook
.
HTH
There is no requirement, by SAFA, EASA or ICAO that requires you have an "approved" logbook. All that matters is that you have it in the approved format. An excel spreadsheet is perfectly adequate. It may be that some remote countries don't believe that LogTen Pro is suitable but certainly the UK CAA does and almost certainly any EASA/FAA/TCA controlled territories will be.
That it be presentable on demand is open for debate, I don't carry mine with me, it would get wrecked! So I use Log Ten Pro, print out then sign and stick it in my logbook
.HTH
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You can also try the https://www.flylogio.com/pilot-logbook. It has the format exactly as Jeppesen EASA logbook when you export your data as PDF. It's perfectly accepted here in Czech Rep.
Last edited by stenlee; 17th Mar 2016 at 10:48.