Biz Jets, Ag Flying, GA etc.The place for discussion of issues related to corporate, Ag and GA aviation. If you're a professional pilot and don't fly for the airlines then try here.
Ok, stress free, to make it simple, is the jet used to transport an outside party or will the company be paid for those flights? No, for internal use, there is no charge to a second or third party, there is only a direct operating cost.
So clearly no AOC required.
If a large manufactur has a breakdown of a plant (read airplane) he can use the corporate jet to ferry engineers (read aircraft mechanics or pilots) to his plant in order to continue his business. This is not a commercial operation, period.
Well, if anyone sees a hilton black pen down the side its mine I flew this one interesting they bought a very low houred one delivered 2009 ish .it was going for 9.75m I wonder what they paid for it....anyway...
Can an air transport undertaking, especially one that has an AOC, operate (within EU land) occasional flights as PRIVATE. ????
Depending on which corporate entity is the OWNER of the corporate jet, then the flights might NOT be for persones employed by that entity.
If contractors, ie pilots are carried on this aircraft, then they might be considered not to be employees of the owning company. After all thats why Ryanair are using contractors, to avoid any Taxable or Social costs. Perhaps they need a POC not an AOC, after all I operate according to Mr Caymans rules.
If the aircraft is operated on a Manx registration, then it must be ONLY private operations, and according to the Manx requirements.
I am not certain if Mr Manx requires an Operations Manual, certainly Mr Caymen and Mr Bermuda do. They can get very upset if operations are conducted outside thier rules of engagement.
To sum it all up, I do not know enough about the Corporate entities involved. But would suggest that real deep professional advice be taken, (which I am sure it has.)
Can an air transport undertaking, especially one that has an AOC, operate (within EU land) occasional flights as PRIVATE. ????
Yes. It is even possible for an individual aircraft, registered on an AOC, to switch to making private flights, then switch back to PT flights on the next flight. Not easy to get authority, but it is possible.
Ironically, as others have hinted, it is probably more "illegal" to (potentially) charge for sandwiches on the flights...
Depending on which corporate entity is the OWNER of the corporate jet, then the flights might NOT be for persones employed by that entity.
All you need then is a lease agreement to keep it Private. Different scenarios for when the A/C owner is offshore and the end user is onshore, you can even nominate a UK co as agent for the offshore entity to claim back VAT on purchase and fuel etc.
There is no legal reason to have a private A/C on an AOC and those that do are just misinformed or misguided. The only advantage is fuel tax, but there are ways around that too for private aircraft.
To sum it all up, I do not know enough about the Corporate entities involved.
Yep, that's patently clear from your post. And so too is your knowledge of the Manx register - so why post?
Everything you need to know regarding the IOM register, what their aircraft may do, when, how, and for whom, and the regulatory structure they work to, is available on their web site.
In the regs you will find precisely how such an operation could be worked as private.
IOM reg may not be for you, but have you ever stopped to wonder just why it is so popular?
IOM reg may not be for you, but have you ever stopped to wonder just why it is so popular?
Obviously tax reasons, but its not particularly well regulated for commercial ops.....they don't "allow" it therefore have no provision to control it...legal or illegal.
I'm pretty sure the FR operation on the LJ is fine, but there are plenty of M reg aeroplanes doing dodgy charters. I hear Special Branch are now being drafted in by the CAA as the problem is so overwhelming. The UK CAA are now having to get involved as the manx auth don't have the infrastructure or resources to deal with it.
... but there are plenty of M reg aeroplanes doing dodgy charters.
....
Quote:
...the problem is so overwhelming.
A pretty bold statement. If you actually KNOW that to be a fact, then why do you not tip off the authorities? If I was a legitimate charter operator, I certainly would.
I would suspect that it is actually less likely that IOM aircraft are used for dodgy charters due to the fact that everyone knows that the IOM register does not cater for CAT. I don't doubt it happens though, but I'm sure it's not as prevalent as you suggest, and I'm certain that the problem is not of an "overwhelming" nature.
And another thing; Why special branch - what do they have to do with it?
They certainly save money on the crew, first officers have to be rated and are only employed during the busy period then dumped at the end of the season, but they dangle the carrot stating you may get an opportunity to move sideways on to the airline fleet
the nice man at ryanair has created a major business that employes crew for 300 aircraft, why would he want to use his aircraft to fly crew around, what am I missing, do you deserve the honour of working for such a worthy boss, your comments are just joke right !
It is used as a work horse and allegedly a bit tatty on the inside. Operated to maintain the network schedule by moving parts, engineers and crew as required.
I operate a M reg aircraft, thus might be considered to have a working knowledge of the M system, combined with a Cayman and Bermudan validation, also understand their systems too.
My reference to the corporate structure is related to the distance between corporate entities as well as the relationship between the contract staff, (and who employes them), and the oners of the aircraft.
If Ryans aircraft and more specifically the sale of seats on it are NOT available to the public generally it is a private operation and does not require an AOC.
You may operate a B747 in private on a PPL if you wish. The moment you charge a "public" even unto a token dollar the regulatory for hire or reward the roof falls in. Company staff, parts and equipment on company business or jollies yet do not fall into the net. The Tax man might have something to say about the jollies but the regulator is not interested.
Standards are an entirely separate issue. However in most countries the 'standards' for Part 25 type aircraft maintenance are similar whether private or "airline" crew training and SMS is another story.
I have operated (now retired) four Part 25 AOC's the most recent with Challenger and Gulfstream. So I know of what I speak.
And yes the "private" jets illegally operated in charter are a danger to everyone, dumb owners and complicit and even dumber pilots don't seem to understand the seriously negative financial consequences if it goes pear shaped.
Quite impressed that Ryanair has a contingency plan for shifting crew around when there's type of dog up. That job would be like being Maverick in the alert5 aircraft. Jonny's pulled a sickie in Genoa cos he's pissed - launch Maverick in the alert5 with Shattered and Newbie to go rescue the jet!
And yes the "private" jets illegally operated in charter are a danger to everyone, dumb owners and complicit and even dumber pilots don't seem to understand the seriously negative financial consequences if it goes pear shaped.
Edit: for dumb pilot, add idiot.
How can these, so called, dumb idiot pilots know whether the pax are employed by the owner of the airplane and/or know whether they are paying for the flight?
