Biz Jets, Ag Flying, GA etc.The place for discussion of issues related to corporate, Ag and GA aviation. If you're a professional pilot and don't fly for the airlines then try here.
I think that’s the key point despite costs is the transferring of kit which is important to work. Going to go over the options and finally make a decision of the next few weeks, but thank you for all your help. Must admit I not hear one person other than the broker we went to first who has said get the Gulfstream II
Have a look at the Embraer legacy. Good hold space and cheap compared to the other modern kit. Will need a fuel stop westbound back to the us though which can be done in less than 30 mins on the ground. Fantastic dispatch reliability as well.
So I taken the advice from here as well as a third party and we have found a jet that suits our needs and within budget, we have been advised to get a tech report, I guess the same as a house survey which I would not even think of having it completely looked over by an expert before parting with that kind of cash.
I have a fee of $2,000 a day and around $1,500 for travel for a tech to do the report, is this a fair price?
This is called a pre purchase inspection its your chance to have the AC gone over from Nose to Tail. This is done at a service centre which is a qualified facility approved by the Airframe manufacturer.
You are responsible to pay your qualified Engineer who will go over all tech logs as well as any other documentation, and do a full inspection ,the current owner is responsible to cover the cost of the inspection at the facility. Your Engineer should give you a report on any snag or discrepancy. After this you negotiate what the owner is prepared to have fixed at his cost and what final price you are prepared to pay for the AC.
In this market you should insist on all defects or major items be covered by the owner, you should leave the facility with a freshly inspected current up to date AC.
I hope this helps you should you have any questions feel free to contact me.
I realize it was the same I guess as house survey pointing out everything that is wrong with the aircraft before the sale. However I was wondering was $3500 including the travel a fair price as I just asked the broker if they recommended anyone and that was the price I was given, if it massively wide of the mark or even too good to be true I will look elsewhere.
First of all, the engines are nearly impossible to get parts for. The fuel burns are outrageous and the avionics will not be compliant with EASA requirements without great expense. Here in the US, we commonly refer to GIIs as "geranium planters". GIIIs are nearly in the same boat. The least expensive Gulfstream that is reasonably operationally efficient is a later GIV SP. The best "bang for the buck" is a GV. They go for about $20 mil and have reasonably upgradeable avionics and decent fuel burns. Anything that you spend on a GII is a total write off in very short order.
The pre-buy on our last G-III took several weeks, a team of 5 in the hangar going over the aircraft, and two guys in a single wide going over the log books from day one.... Gulfstream used to charge $60,000 (ballpark) for this in 2000. It should be noted that a GIII was worth 8-10 Million U.S. in those days...
If it saved you from a several hundred thousands in oooppppssss, big repair bills, and losing your job...
Do you have any ideas where to find base and shelter for your aircraft in the Washington area, at reasonable cost and reasonable distance to your headquarters? It is the second most important question after the purchase decision. Besides, I've witnessed the doom results of a "wow, it's cheap to buy this big airplane" attitude in my vicinity. The aircraft is sitting in a hangar since, abandoned and waiting for some miracle...Be careful. Consider the advices of experts in the previous posts.
Cheers and good luck,
b
P.s: Any feedback on the outcome of your story would be appreciated.
Before we even looked around for a a/c we looked at local airports/fields and we are lucky there is one near ourselves that has space as well as two runways, but due to Ronald Regan and Dulles being local to it, within 40 miles it is someone what under used. When in fact it is the largest region airport in the state, and as its city owned the rental is not to bad.
As people have mentioned, please take the aircraft you are looking at to a service center to have a proper pre buy done! It will save you sooooo much money in the long run. A proper pre-buy can not be done in a day or by one guy who says he can do it for you cheap.
If you like, you can PM me and I will give you the contact information for our Director of Maintenance who can lead you in the right direction. He has been supervising Pre-Buys and doing Log Book inspections for Banks and independent clients for years.
You are going to lose your shirt with a G2.... we have operated G2's and G3's, right now they are sitting on the apron and we cant even give them away It is apparent that you know nothing about the costs of an aircraft or maintenance, so be very careful as you are running the risk of bankrupting your company.
To jump from airline flying to corporate ownership of a large jet is utterly crazy. I would strongly suggest getting an aircraft share in Netjets or similar to gain the experience of corporate flying, then in a year or two, reassess the costs and decide if you can afford a "reasonable" corporate jet.
On October 1st you told us that business was looking up, and that as it had been an ambition of yours to own a private jet you were now contemplating the purchase of a G2.
It was pointed out by many here that in 1967 the aircraft was a wonderful airplane, but now it can only be described as a noisy, gas guzzling, worthless museum piece that will cost you a fortune to keep flying. Nevertheless, you persist, and within a couple of days you have decided that there is merit in re-upholstering and re-painting a sows ear to turn it into a silk purse, despite the fact that most here have advise you will never get your money back.
Now I don't know very much about cybertronics, let alone the bio variant, but if I was going to buy one for circa $500,000 I would certainly heed the common advise given in any cybertronic forum. More than that, if I did find a forty year old cybertronic model that took my fancy, I would engage the services of a cybertronic appointed service centre to do the pre-purchase inspection - and not some muppet who will do the job in a day or two for pocket money!
If you go ahead with this plan you really are gonna make the seller and his broker very happy people. My advise mirrors that of everyone else here...stop thinking of a G2, and believe us....you can NOT afford it!!
You need to take good advice before you move any further forward with your plan. That isn't as easy as it may sound - the aviation world, as with most, has too many people out for themselves and not the customer - be careful who you listen to and get advice from various sources.
For me, if you want to operate an aircraft that will allow, at times, up to 12 Pax in comfort, your statement;
'I realsie the cost will be quite high, but as we are doing around 450 hours a year flying for at least 4 people at time, I am sure the costs will come in line with what we are spending on Business class alone.'
is, IMO, way way off the mark. The jump from Business Class ticket to 12 Pax aircraft doing 450 hours a year is huge. As you say though, you do get superb availability, speed and point to point routing - however, it will cost you far more than I think you realise.
If you still have any doubts? - this is a pilot forum and pretty much everyone is telling you to think again.
bio, perhaps you could tell us what your budget is and how much you intend to spend on the plane per month or per year? This would immediately identify the aircraft which are available to you, and would eliminate comments posted by some such as "you will not afford it bla bla bla". I'm sure there are lots of experts here who could provide you with good advice on what to purchase, provided they know how much money you have to spend.
The last few posts have finally brought some desperately needed home truths to the intrepid biocybertronics!
At first I thought the original post may have been the action of a teenage aviation enthusiast but now I don't know what to think!
I have a suspicion that this enquiry is a flight of fancy more than a genuine situation involving someone who is going to buy an aircraft anytime soon.
Bio - You need to talk to someone that has researched, bought, put on line, managed, and flown corporate jets as a Chief Pilot.
Anyone saying a G5 or Challenger is a viable alternative doesn't have a clue as to the real world capitol cost difference.
What you need to do is sit down with someone that is objective, not trying to sell you a plane, take a hard look at your travel history, what realistically you need to accomplish...then be super conservative as a move into your first big jet.
First, I'm shocked! Shocked to learn that some posts here on PPruneare not genuine!! How could this possibly happen? OK, IMHO, maybe 35% of the posts here are flat out bogus, rants, or are severely skewed by a toxic mixture of anger and/or an inflated ego. However, many of the kind replies provide worthy learning points.
Second, regarding this post, the cost of capital is treated differently depending on the current situation of the person or entity. Sometimes, you may want to sink "all cash" into an aircraft, other times, leverage with a 90% loan (If you can get a loan), and other times, go the nothing down route and lease!
Regardless, you should be looking at the 5 year cost of ownership, not the purchase price alone. In this case, I bet a $9 million dollar GIV is way cheaper than a $1.5 million dollar GII over 5 years.
Finally, I've seen many a time where a client ended up with a crazy choice for an aircraft. One owner I know fly's 50 hours a year on 500 NM legs, and owns a G550, another owner fly's from LA to London every month buys an aircraft requiring two fuel stops each way.
The cost of ownership over, say 5 years, for a G5 or CL, in relation to the cost of ownership on a G2 is a balance between reale value, as well as hourly operating costs.
The OP has a quantity of delicate and sensitive equipment to transport, as well as SLF.
I gather he requires rapid dispatch, and secure hangerage......
450 hours a year is good utilisation for any corporate jet, GLf of Cl.
Is it 35 % or 95% of us here that are legit or what...Sometimes PP actually helps other...
It is apparent that you know nothing about the costs of an aircraft or maintenance, so be very careful as you are running the risk of bankrupting your company.
