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Old 3rd Aug 2012, 08:56   #1 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: en route
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Gulfstream - open baggage door in flight

Quick question for the G-jocks out there; I'm looking for a biz jet with a 3000 + NM range that is certified to allow the baggage door to be opened in flight, at low level, and a couple of packages thrown out.

A contact has told me that there is a G-variant with a starboard side rear cargo door that can be opened in flight.

Anyone know if this is true?

Thanks

r
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Old 3rd Aug 2012, 09:37   #2 (permalink)
 
Join Date: May 2009
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You must be smoking the contents of some of the packages...

The only Gulfstreams I've seen with door(s) on the right side (other than emergency exits) probably don't exist. You probably wouldn't want to be a passenger on them, either. It would be difficult to buy one, as you can't identify them - no markings. They have a habit of appearing around Middle Eastern and North African airports. I believe they holiday in Cuba....

I have to ask, what packages do you intend to throw out and where?
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Old 3rd Aug 2012, 10:08   #3 (permalink)
 
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muggins

Sorry, mate - been a busy few days. The cargo hatch is on the PORT side, not the starboard. Behind the bulkhead.

The cargo is entirely legit. Resupply for some individuals who have got themselves in a tricky situation.

The issue is - if the a/c is not certified for opening hatches in flight, I presume the AOC insurance would be invalidated - which is obviously only an issue if something subsequently goes wrong.

Our client needs to be sure the insurance is A-OK. - which I guess confirms that there is nothing illegal about it.

tks

r
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Old 3rd Aug 2012, 13:07   #4 (permalink)
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
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On some of them, maybe all, you can deflate the aft cargo door seal for smoke removal, and its also a designated emergency exit. So it should be possible to open it.

I would suggest you ask Gulfstream

Quote:
Behind the bulkhead.
Its in the baggage hold not behind the bulkhead, therefore it is a pressurised area.

Mutt
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Old 3rd Aug 2012, 13:30   #5 (permalink)
 
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Have you considered a helicopter? Or an unpressurised turboprop?
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Old 3rd Aug 2012, 14:16   #6 (permalink)
 
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Options

We need long range. So helo is out and turboprop would take too long.

Noted, Mutt, on the emergency exit option; but presumably there's a difference between an emergency egress point for use when all else fails, and a FAA certification of a hatch that can be opened in flight, then closed again for a return to altitude?

Also I guess heaving heavy bags out of the door could damage door seals?

It's pretty arcane, I know. Once I've established the variant that's in the frame I will drop G/stream tech dept a line. Kind of hope to get this show on the road in the next few days...

r
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Old 3rd Aug 2012, 14:23   #7 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Also I guess heaving heavy bags out of the door could damage door seals?
If you need to do this more than once, you should design a chute that goes from the toilet door to the exit, once open, you could slide the packages out the door without having to approach the actual door.

Mutt
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Old 3rd Aug 2012, 14:23   #8 (permalink)
 
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What about a 727 with tanks? Remove the Cooper Vane, and it's doable to open the rear door in flight... same with a DC-9 but the range isn't there.

No idea if there are any used ones on the market, but USCG HU-25s (Falcon 20) have a belly door that can be opened in-flight for making drops. Again though it's range-limited if you need 3000NM+

Last edited by MikeNYC; 3rd Aug 2012 at 14:26.
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Old 3rd Aug 2012, 20:08   #9 (permalink)
 
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Hire a C-130..you can drop anything,even a boat...
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Old 3rd Aug 2012, 20:43   #10 (permalink)
 
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thanks

thanks all - as I noted in the IP, we have been offered a Gulfstream; that's what I'm trying to get info on.

C-130, 727, helos, Ilyushins, Antonovs, Cessna Caravans - all interesting, all got their strengths, but not one of them's a Gulfstream.

The core question - has anyone ever come across a civilian-registered Gulfstream certified for commercial operations with the rear cargo hatch open in flight?

r
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Old 3rd Aug 2012, 22:22   #11 (permalink)
 
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A well-off skydiver here in the States has used his GV for skydiving on a couple of occasions. From what I understand, the baggage door was removed before takeoff, so that might not fit your requirements, but I do know that a GV can be flown with the baggage door opened/removed.
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Old 4th Aug 2012, 02:46   #12 (permalink)
 
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There is lot more to dropping packages that just opening the door. Separation from the plane and the flow needs to be tested, FAA cert needed, loadmasters trained and properly restrained, aiming system devised and tested.

Ransom money, perhaps?

GF
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Old 4th Aug 2012, 08:38   #13 (permalink)
 
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Something with bomb doors might fit the bill.
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Old 4th Aug 2012, 18:51   #14 (permalink)
 
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rcsa,

Any door/ hatch not specifically designed to be opened in flight is liable to be damaged; as is the aircraft hull. The hinge attachment points on the door and the fuselage come to mind as possible damage due to turbulence.

The G IV baggage hatch opens internally as does the G V hatch. Th G V hatch is under the port engine pylon. Don't know about other Gulfstream products.
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Old 4th Aug 2012, 20:21   #15 (permalink)
 
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Thanks

Thanks all - looks like we're stood down for now; very helpful advice, though - much appreciated.

r
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Old 4th Aug 2012, 23:22   #16 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Well done everyone, now they know which bizjet to use, and how to drop devices from it wake up you idiots, why would any official organization wish to ask for such information on here !!!!!!
Holy shit man get with the programe, do you really think they are going to get certification to drop packages, parcels, bombs, or any other object come on you have all just identified something

Or RCSA is just another pathetic troll
Your username seems to suggest where your head is

I can think of plenty of legitimate reasons why somebody would ask this question, and judging by where rcsa lives / is based they seem even more fitting
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Old 5th Aug 2012, 11:13   #17 (permalink)
 
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There is a solution certified it you can load the cargo before take off. However you will not ( for the time being) be allowed to jettison this outside continental US (+ Alaska).
Cost is around 700k$ (excluding paperwork) and limited to FL410 / M0.8 and 350 kias and 700 Lbs.
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Old 5th Aug 2012, 12:00   #18 (permalink)
 
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750XL,

Major drug dealers already have access to business jets. They also have technical development teams. Drug dealers also have access to existing supply lines that are more cost effective and are able to translocate drugs in larger quantities than a business jet is able to.

There are many reasons for an organisation/ group of people to approach "experts" for possible solutions.
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Old 5th Aug 2012, 15:29   #19 (permalink)
 
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Clarification

Just for clarification, gentlemen; this operation would have been completely legal, in every jurisdiction involved. The primary objective would have been humanitarian. It would have resolved a problem that no state actor or para-statal actor is prepared to address. But it would have had the full, overt, written support of all decision-making and enforcement agencies.

Forgive me for not being more specific. I appreciate the concerns expressed by some on this thread. But to repeat, this mission does not involve drugs, guns, or anything illegal.

I turned to this board for advice because I needed a reliable clear read on my specific question, over the weekend, as support to a commercial discussion I will have to make on Monday.

As noted above, the task is now on hold. Thanks again.

r
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Old 6th Aug 2012, 09:51   #20 (permalink)


Probationary PPRuNer
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Deerfield Beach, FL
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Gulfstream
Operational Information Supplement
For GII Through G550 Airplanes
Supplement Number GAC-OIS-01:
Mitigation of Potentially Explosive Devices
Basic Issue
March 15, 2005
Type: Abnormal Procedures
Applicability: All Gulfstream "Large Cabin" Airplanes

OPERATIONAL INFORMATION SUPPLEMENT
GAC-OIS-01 ADVISORY DATA ONLY
GAC-OIS-01 BASIC ISSUE
Page 2 MITIGATION OF POTENTIALLY EXPLOSIVE DEVICES Mar 15/05
SECTION 3: ABNORMAL PROCEDURES
Add the following abnormal procedure:
Mitigation of Potentially Explosive Devices
1. Move the device to the airplane’s right forward cabin window.
2. If possible, attempt to secure the device as close to the window
as possible, using tape or any other means available.
3. Remove any portable oxygen, or other equipment that could
become a projectile, away from the area.
4. Cover the device with cushioning materials including but not
limited to clothing, cushions, followed by dry and wet blankets.
5. Move all passengers to the rear of the airplane and ensure their
seatbelts are securely fastened.
6. Descend to as low an altitude as practical.
7. Depressurize the airplane as soon as possible after descent.
8. Notify ATC and request assistance from appropriate agency.

Consideration should be given to the possibility of throwing
the device overboard through the baggage door. If the crew
decides to do this, the airplane should be flown to an area that
is sparsely populated and:
1. Descend to 2,000 ft AGL or lower.
2. Verify that the airplane is depressurized.
3. Extend the flaps to 20 degrees.
4. Move the device to the baggage compartment.
5. Slow to 150 KCAS.
6. Open the baggage door.
7. Throw the device out using a strong downward and aft motion.

Once the device is overboard, return the airplane to the
normal configuration and either continue to the original
destination or divert to the nearest suitable airport and report
the event to the authorities.

GAC-OIS-01 BASIC ISSUE
Page 2 MITIGATION OF POTENTIALLY EXPLOSIVE DEVICES Mar 15/05


I think its possible to get permission from the FAA for your mission with a gulfstream aircraft, since they already have a procedure in place from gulfstream.
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