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You started off saying the aircraft had to fly European routes or maybe to Moscow...... Now you are talking about Dubai? So have you really assessed what the aircraft will be used for?
Btw, I ink that cldvrs sticky on how to select an aircraft should be made a sticky
You know how are things going. We just got a potential customer in Dubai. So we would like include all the aspects. Our basic needs stays the same - midsize jet with defineted budget. So if I understand Learjet doesn't make it legally and Hawker does, right?
VKO-DXB with 1/2 pax, light baggage, without fuel stop, help with winds and Moscow APP/CTR and DP procedure (UBBB) is legally doable in LJ60 even in AOC operations. Is it meaningful or comfortable - usually no. But it could legally done. MUC-DXB cannot be done, you need fuel stop.
I'm pretty sure we've done ULLI OMDB AOC at some point (Caveat - I'm not in a position to check) which would make UUWW OMDB non stop doable. In any case we've done UKBB - OMDB non stop and the GC distance for UUWW OMDB is only 200km further.
Ditch the LR60 and appoint a decent company to go shopping for you. I wouldn't bother with the Lear 60. OK, so one day you have a tight schedule and the boss wants to go to London City. Easy for the Hawker, LR60...nope.
Or the wife wants to go to Cannes for the weekend. Nope, that'd be Nice and a Heli. In practice the baggage isn't that much of an issue (i've seen a week of baggage for a family of 6 dissapear into a Hawker and the only things left out were handbags and epherema associated with young kids) and the operating cost isn't that much more (if any) compared to what it buys you.
As a pilot of 60XR with 3 discs on both sides I also and fully agree with all that Epsum wrote - though I like my APU but... I would not consider Hawker for few reasons, and the main is TKS - I've flown a lot on Cirrus SR22 with this liquid sh*** and I cannot imagine what it can be in a big jet and WHO (?) certified that... i also cannot imagine a sitution where i had to use a lot of it for departure from some cold place in Europe and then being placed in some holding before Vnukovo at some shitty altitude where i need to have this stuff on for some really long time although asking the controller who don't care (they really don't) to put me in some less icing altitutde, and then commence an approach with almost empty tank of TKS and being given a go-around (it happens a lot of times there !)... to go again into freezing trap and finish without this tks ... Plus You can't buy it almost anywhere in Europe, You have to carry it, and this is a DGR (SAFA guys will ask), You carry a lot of it and it takes Your Hawker sized bagg compartment. I don't know which Hawker You consider to tell You about the range but MUC-DXB is a rather Sovereign/CL300 route.
Learjet 60 is a great rocket to fly for pilots, for 4-5 pax it is great in the cabin too. As Epsum said if well maintained by a guy who knows that switches, squat-switches, and micro-switches are the worst nightmare of this airplane and he needs to have a full stock of them, then this airplane doesn't brake any more than any other or even ... less. Really the only thing that was wrong during my 300 hrs experience were the switches, but still they did not ground the aircraft. You don't put that much luggage but still - You can cope with normal size of normal people for even 7 days trip and put this 5 pax, load Yourself with fuel and the performance will let You fly away from the ground in the time no other midsize will give . The range consider comfortable up to 2200 NM with an altn, or 2000 NM plus an altn. The runway length is not an issue with Russia - they all have long runways and in the most of the Europe... sure there are some places where You can't go, but after some time You may start considering it as an advantage instead of again trying to fit in some grass strip sized runway beacuse Your boss told You to land there, and indeed the charts say it's ok.
Flying regularly from either Moscow or anywhere in central Europe to the Emirates or back is not the right application for any LearJet. But, hey, you gotta start somewhere, don't you?
Nothing wrong with starting off with an airplane which is suitable for 75-80 % of your trips and then stepping up as time goes by. Better this way than the other way around.
Have you ever considered a late s/n Falcon 20 with TFE731s? They offer great value, excellent short field performance, speed and range. If I'm not mistaken, the ones equipped with the TFE731 will make 2,500 NM.
They must be cheap to buy, type rating courses are being done either in DFW or LBG, but there are not many of them around any longer, so finding experienced pilots and mechanics might be a challenge...
The only problem with the falcon is that it will cost you double per flight hour, I have a couple of friends flying one from Moscow and the cost is around 4.000€/hr
That's true. It is generally known that Falcons are expensive. It's higher level as well. How wrote jetopa we would like start somewhere, not in the "highest floor"
At the end of the day, it will always be a compromise between your budget and your operational requirements.
In the long run the Hawker will deliver the most bang for your buck. It might be somewhat higher in your initial cost, but reasonable operational costs and being a very reliable airplane when it comes to maintenance will make up for it.
Performance seems to be geared towards your type of operation, the cabin size is nice and very comfortable for you passengers. Baggage space is not great but sufficient.
Should you some day decide for an upgrade, the resale value will make up for the initial cost.
moving in the range of 3.0-4.0M$ is ok, the lost of value in the next years is not as much if you were buying a new 60 (13.0M$) where you will loose half of that in less than 5 years.
Also buying a Falcon 20 for 1.0M$ with high cost per hour is not good if you plan to fly 600hrs/year, we are talking almost 1.0M$ extra in costs every year compare to a 60 or Hawker, but if you fly 100hrs probaly is your aircraft.
As always depends what you need and what you plan. When these rich guys come and want to buy an aircraft always think on a G550 and normally end buying a Citation 1. Calculate which is their fortune and maximum 5% of the total is what they should expend buying an aircraft
Thank you very much to the pilots who posted at this thread. Your experience and information were very interesting and useful. According to our requirements we finally choosed the Learjet 60 at the first round.
Hopefully these inforamtion posted here can be useful for somebody else.
60 any day, the hawkers i come to know had NOTHING bud trouble all the time, ya maybe unlucky but 5 JUNK airplanes did it for me...
Haven flown then 800hrs Plus in the 60 and 60XR, see not u got a beautiful aircraft for both Pilots and Pax.
Sure the cabin is what? 1 inch lower inside but thats it..... Lear 60 Greatly outperforms the Hawker in any way... And no not right u surely can take the 60 into Cannes no reason to fly to Nice, Sure Monaco is an issue but so it is for the Hawker.
Apu same issue for all smaller biz-jet's some are lucky some are not, some will work some will not no matter what aircraft u take...
Flown 2 brand new 60XR from the factory, one never had an issue the other the APU failed over and over the first 2 month, but so it did on the hawkers!!!
Range!!! oh ya like that 200NM is gonna make it ir break it??? I'll bet u that with the performance of the 60, I am able to almost push the same numbers out of the 60 then the Hawker when it comes to distance as i am actually able at fl. 450 or Fl.470 when light enough to pull back my engines further then what the book say i can!!! done it several times...
Parts being more expensive then the hawker??? Not really anymore, check the books and see the difference, sure 4-5 years ago there was actually a bit of a difference but now no not really...
As a Pilot ya sure i didnt mind the hawker but i greatly prefer the 60 and not the 60XR, haven flown from Beijing yesterday down to Macau sitting at Fl450 above all the weather was great specially when we had some of the biggest thunderstorms i seen in a longggg time... Try that Hawker, that slow ass wont even get near Fl430.
Do i really care what u buy, HAHA NO :-) up to u but make sure the owners sit in the 60 or the hawker before they even agree to anything, met too many companies who buy a mid-sizes jet without even sitting in one, thinking its much bigger then the fact.
Buy what fits the budget, they the client likes to sit in and what u as a Pilot would enjoy the more, but also remember classic 60 right now about 3-3.5 mil USD. New XR about 10Mil Used 604 about 13mil. So ya if u want used, IT IS CHEAP if u want new... Hmm then think about it as it would be worth paying the 3 mil more for the 604 ;-)
Hi Everyone, Hope this thread is still being looked at.
Very interesting views on the LJ 60, I have a lot of experience on the 35 (maintenance wise) and have found it to be a fairly reliable aircraft (given its age). Iwould have thought newer versions would at least carry on the legacy.
My company is looking at the 60 as a 35 replacement as it can be hardpointed. Given this requirement and knowing you didn't have to care about how much fuel you use (ie cost) do you still think there is a beter alternative?
Also could anyone tell me if the maintenance schedule is similar as in Phase A, B, C, D checks etc
It's been some years, but I remember one or two things about the 60:
A lot of issues with getting the APU going. Something to do with a fuel-atomiser, I was told? Getting to the batteries if an APU is installed is tricky, in fact a lot of maintenance-access is tedious, which can slow you down during an AOG-troubleshooting. Starter-gennies let go every so often. Poor runway-numbers, as everybody has mentioned. Also you want to bear in mind that, whilst Russian runways are long, the surface is often very poor which makes for a jarring ride on those tiny wheels. Moscow-Dubai is possible, we did it. Wing is happiest at around 400, maybe slightly above.
And Hawker can probably make it, right?
but... I would not consider Hawker for few reasons, and the main is TKS - I've flown a lot on Cirrus SR22 with this liquid sh*** and I cannot imagine what it can be in a big jet and WHO (?) certified that... i also cannot imagine a sitution where i had to use a lot of it for departure from some cold place in Europe and then being placed in some holding before Vnukovo at some shitty altitude where i need to have this stuff on for some really long time although asking the controller who don't care (they really don't) to put me in some less icing altitutde, and then commence an approach with almost empty tank of TKS and being given a go-around (it happens a lot of times there !)... to go again into freezing trap and finish without this tks ... Plus You can't buy it almost anywhere in Europe, You have to carry it, and this is a DGR (SAFA guys will ask), You carry a lot of it and it takes Your Hawker sized bagg compartment. I don't know which Hawker You consider to tell You about the range but MUC-DXB is a rather Sovereign/CL300 route.
Take a Hawker!
