Do you need an AOC for animal transport
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: UK
Age: 51
Posts: 768
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Do you need an AOC for animal transport
As the title says is an AOC needed if you are just transporting animals in a cessna caravan ? not with the animal handlers also would you need 2 pilots or just 1. operating in UK and Europe
cheers
cheers
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is the person or organisation operating the aircraft the same as the person or organisation wishing to move the animals, or is the operator going to charter out to move animals for others?
In the former case no, in the latter yes.
In either case you need permission from the State Veterinary Service if the operator is UK-based.
In the former case no, in the latter yes.
In either case you need permission from the State Veterinary Service if the operator is UK-based.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: MAN
Posts: 769
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you get paid to fly people/animals/boxes, for a third party you need an AOC, it don't matter what you chuck in the back, the CAA wants its cut.
On a seperate note, you will need approval from DEFRA also. Routes and transport companies « Defra
The real question is what if you fly birds, and they fly unhindered in the pax compartment, are you really carrying them? I guess as soon as they defecate you are again carrying something so you need a "sh!tty" AOC.....
At least we have a thread again where the vicious pro private and pro AOC can have a go at each other again on how much safer they each are......
Hat, coat, door.
On a seperate note, you will need approval from DEFRA also. Routes and transport companies « Defra
The real question is what if you fly birds, and they fly unhindered in the pax compartment, are you really carrying them? I guess as soon as they defecate you are again carrying something so you need a "sh!tty" AOC.....
At least we have a thread again where the vicious pro private and pro AOC can have a go at each other again on how much safer they each are......
Hat, coat, door.
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That DEFRA is only cats, dogs and ferrets, for rabies. Other animals covered by rabies regulations need to be quarantined coming into the UK. All animals need (or did last time I carried any) SVS approval. This is really a formality it seems, so they can ban you if you are vivisecting them in flight.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: MAN
Posts: 769
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for clarifying that, I have only ever carried pets, the only animals I have had occasionally in the back were SLF, that's for another thread.
So to sum it up, you need an AOC, you need either SVS or Defra approval and using a SE, you are dependent on the weather and time of day.
Not a business plan that has much chance of success.
So to sum it up, you need an AOC, you need either SVS or Defra approval and using a SE, you are dependent on the weather and time of day.
Not a business plan that has much chance of success.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
your also opening yourself up for a huge amount of ball ache.
As soon as any tree hugger finds out that your transporting them all hell will let loose. You can be transporting animlas for the RSPCA and you will still get someone complaining.
There are more regulations to do with moving animals than there are moving people.
If they are getting transported for contraversial reasons. Ie lab rats and the like. Your in for a whole load of hassle.
As soon as any tree hugger finds out that your transporting them all hell will let loose. You can be transporting animlas for the RSPCA and you will still get someone complaining.
There are more regulations to do with moving animals than there are moving people.
If they are getting transported for contraversial reasons. Ie lab rats and the like. Your in for a whole load of hassle.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: UK
Age: 51
Posts: 768
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So if my company buy the animals in say France load them in the back of caravan land in the UK and sell them to my customer then NO AOC ?
as Long as the pilot has a CPL IR would I be correct in saying they could fly night/IFR as single pilot ?
Madjock Who would even think of flying for Labs
as Long as the pilot has a CPL IR would I be correct in saying they could fly night/IFR as single pilot ?
Madjock Who would even think of flying for Labs
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There are a whole raft of regs about experimental animals.
You better plan for a different airport every night as well.
And when you say caravan do you mean a single engine turbine or a C406?
You better plan for a different airport every night as well.
And when you say caravan do you mean a single engine turbine or a C406?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: UK
Age: 51
Posts: 768
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Single engine turbine.
Maybe a helicopter would be better and land on site ! (may be a bit to expensive)
Just out of curiosity are there many people supplying Labs by small aircraft into different airports by night ?
Maybe a helicopter would be better and land on site ! (may be a bit to expensive)
Just out of curiosity are there many people supplying Labs by small aircraft into different airports by night ?
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aircraft crashes after crocodile on board escapes and sparks panic - Telegraph
We I suppose have to consider uninvited creatures? We all have picked up a wasp or fly who has buzzed around the cockpit enroute to wherever.
Spiders, snakes and even the above link which caused a crash.
No mention of fish? Can you carry the pet shark
I am sure flying the owner of a private jet also involves (subject to boundary crossing regs ) The family Poodle! or the owners Pet Bunny
Pace
We I suppose have to consider uninvited creatures? We all have picked up a wasp or fly who has buzzed around the cockpit enroute to wherever.
Spiders, snakes and even the above link which caused a crash.
No mention of fish? Can you carry the pet shark
I am sure flying the owner of a private jet also involves (subject to boundary crossing regs ) The family Poodle! or the owners Pet Bunny
Pace
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: South Est
Posts: 231
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So if my company buy the animals in say France load them in the back of caravan land in the UK and sell them to my customer then NO AOC ?
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Scotland
Posts: 240
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not so hasty, flynowpaylater. If jxc's employers are in the pet sales business, and choose to operate their own aircraft to transport their own inventory, then they do not need an AOC. It is no different to a company owning an aircraft to transport their own executives.
If however "Pets R Us" charters an aircraft from someone else to transport their inventory, then the supplier of the aircraft WILL need an AOC.
Flaymy was therefore right in the first response - if the company/person operating the aircraft and the company/person shifting the animals is the same, then no AOC is required.
If however "Pets R Us" charters an aircraft from someone else to transport their inventory, then the supplier of the aircraft WILL need an AOC.
Flaymy was therefore right in the first response - if the company/person operating the aircraft and the company/person shifting the animals is the same, then no AOC is required.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
and choose to operate their own aircraft to transport their own inventory, then they do not need an AOC. It is no different to a company owning an aircraft to transport their own executives.
That would also include inventory from another company they do business with ie samples in the course of the owning companies business as long as the products are not in the course of the other companies own business ie for sale on their exclusive behalf.
I have flown executives from large multinationals in the course of the owning companies business as well as their products (not pets
for many years.In simple terms if company A own an aircraft and are doing business with company B. They can fly company B to their production plant. Company B may want company A to create certain products and may bring similar products on the trip for company A to discuss in their negotiations, all legal 100%.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 21st Mar 2012 at 20:04.
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 106
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Note what I said - if the operator is the organisation wishing to move the animals then no AOC is required.
jxc has not been entirely clear in this, but it certainly looks like it is jxc's hypothetical customer that wishes that the animals be moved, and jxc is asking about an operator willing to buy them and so move them in compliance with the customer's wishes. As flynowpaylater implies this used to be a well-known loophole, but it is now closed, so that operator would require an AOC.
Pace - in the case you are describing the valuable consideration is independent of the flight. The customer would be willing to pay for the product without any flight being involved if he could be assured it was manufactured to specification. The flight is a convenient means of meeting at a suitable location for the manufacturer to assure the customer of this, it is not inherent in the product.
If I read it correctly jxc is looking to supply a product to a customer in one location that is currently in another location, and the only value added is in transport - therefore the valuable consideration (i.e. profit) to the hypothetical operator is for the transport, therefore that is a commercial air transport flight. If this is a retail sale, or a wholesale distribution network that needs to move stock for general sale in the normal run of its business, then that is a different matter.
The difference, I suspect, will come down to whether a price was agreed for the customer to buy off the operator before the operator bought the stock, which implies a flight for the customer not the operator, and who sourced the animals, arranged checks on their health and quality and negotiated the price at source. If the operator did all that and bought the stock before selling it then they would have a good case to be a wholesale or retail organisation simply moving their own stock. That is the case CJ driver is talking about.
Advice to jxc: ask the CAA, and be very specific (and truthful) about the business plan. If they have any doubts then get specialist legal advice.
If you fly illegal charters you will eventually be prosecuted. Initial fines are pathetically low, but they do rise if you fly illegally again so you are out of business at that point, hopefully stuck in the back end of nowhere with an aircraft SAFA inspectors will not let you fly. Then it makes it very, very hard to operate legally afterwards - the CAA will be very wary of you.
If you have an accident on an illegal charter (and it is surprising how many accident flights both private and commercial are illegal for some reason; paperwork may not help you fly, but lack of it seems to signal lack of safety culture) you will not be insured, and it will cost you a very large sum of money, usually life-changing, bankrupting amounts of money. You will also be arrested, charged with many offences, and I hope gaoled.
jxc has not been entirely clear in this, but it certainly looks like it is jxc's hypothetical customer that wishes that the animals be moved, and jxc is asking about an operator willing to buy them and so move them in compliance with the customer's wishes. As flynowpaylater implies this used to be a well-known loophole, but it is now closed, so that operator would require an AOC.
Pace - in the case you are describing the valuable consideration is independent of the flight. The customer would be willing to pay for the product without any flight being involved if he could be assured it was manufactured to specification. The flight is a convenient means of meeting at a suitable location for the manufacturer to assure the customer of this, it is not inherent in the product.
If I read it correctly jxc is looking to supply a product to a customer in one location that is currently in another location, and the only value added is in transport - therefore the valuable consideration (i.e. profit) to the hypothetical operator is for the transport, therefore that is a commercial air transport flight. If this is a retail sale, or a wholesale distribution network that needs to move stock for general sale in the normal run of its business, then that is a different matter.
The difference, I suspect, will come down to whether a price was agreed for the customer to buy off the operator before the operator bought the stock, which implies a flight for the customer not the operator, and who sourced the animals, arranged checks on their health and quality and negotiated the price at source. If the operator did all that and bought the stock before selling it then they would have a good case to be a wholesale or retail organisation simply moving their own stock. That is the case CJ driver is talking about.
Advice to jxc: ask the CAA, and be very specific (and truthful) about the business plan. If they have any doubts then get specialist legal advice.
If you fly illegal charters you will eventually be prosecuted. Initial fines are pathetically low, but they do rise if you fly illegally again so you are out of business at that point, hopefully stuck in the back end of nowhere with an aircraft SAFA inspectors will not let you fly. Then it makes it very, very hard to operate legally afterwards - the CAA will be very wary of you.
If you have an accident on an illegal charter (and it is surprising how many accident flights both private and commercial are illegal for some reason; paperwork may not help you fly, but lack of it seems to signal lack of safety culture) you will not be insured, and it will cost you a very large sum of money, usually life-changing, bankrupting amounts of money. You will also be arrested, charged with many offences, and I hope gaoled.
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: South Est
Posts: 231
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry to be a pedant but I know for a fact that you would need an AOC for that activity. The bias being that the goods are being transported for the sole purpose of a commercial transaction. An example being the early days of Blue Islands in the CI’s. It actually started with the chap who owned the only supermarket on Alderney. He was flying his produce in from Bournemouth on his own BN2. As the only purpose of moving those goods was for sale at the end destination, it was deemed as a commercial flight, and as such, they applied for an AOC, and started the Bournemouth to Alderney scheduled service route. The rest is history.
The same logic applies to say Tesco’s, who operate a huge fleet of lorries carrying their own goods, but need an operating licence to do so, and are regulated in the same way as any other transport provider, such as Eddie Stobart who move 3rd party goods.
The same logic applies to say Tesco’s, who operate a huge fleet of lorries carrying their own goods, but need an operating licence to do so, and are regulated in the same way as any other transport provider, such as Eddie Stobart who move 3rd party goods.