Biz Jets, Ag Flying, GA etc.The place for discussion of issues related to corporate, Ag and GA aviation. If you're a professional pilot and don't fly for the airlines then try here.
I didn't mean to suggest that debris went into the engine, only that it might be possible and that tail mounted engines were more likely to ingest tires than wing mounted engines.
It is too soon to know really what happened in the cockpit...as far as decision making.
good luck with your aviation dreams, remember that safety is the ultimate responsibility and most important part of any aviation job.
Escaped at Last... my deepest condolences for the loss of your friend. It's always a shame to lose anyone in this business, but especially people like Mr. Bland as you've described him. Blue skies and tailwinds, brother.
Sad accident - xxx I have flown Lears long time ago, not much recently, last time nearly 5 years ago in a 31A. Have about 2,500 hrs on them, 20/30 and 55 types. I was a Lear type rating CFI in my days as F/O-F/E with the airlines, this to make extra money. xxx Of course I loved the Lears, especially the 24B and its near 7,000 FPM initial climb rate, which reduced to (only) 2,500 FPM when simulating ONE ENGINE operations. But there were a few things I did not like as much. xxx I did not like the "spoiler" switch (with a guard) on the throttle quadrant. Would have preferred to have, say, a little "handle" rather than a tiny switch. Easier to grab to perform a rejected takeoff. xxx The other thing I did not like were the reversers. Well, I liked the reversers (especially hydraulic reversers fast to deploy). But hated the "reversers switching panel" with small tweezer-size switches to "ARM" reversers. We used to arm reversers on takeoff until reaching V1 speed. Was not easy gestures to "deploy spoilers" and "arm reversers" at touch down. I have never flown 60 series - I suppose it is close to compare to 55s...
They "fixed" a lot of things about the lear with the 60 (except the wheels/brakes, IMO). The only thing we arm on takeoff is the APR (Automatic Performance Reserve). The T/Rs, autospoilers, etc. are all automatically armed.
As for debris... it's highly unlikely that debris from tires would go in the engines (like Concord) because the engine inlets are over the flaps. Debris would have to fly all the way forward and then up over the wings to get to the engines. Flap damage is possible from a blown tire, though. Also, the squat switch and wiring for the wheel speed generators (for anti-skid) are quite exposed to damage should there be a blowout. I just spoke with an engineer from Bombardier last week who lamented the vulnerability of the wiring to the wheel-speed generators. Historically, it's a tricky anti-skid system. Reference NTSB ID NYC07LA202... another anti-skid issue that has yet to be resolved with the 60.
As far as the plane going into "air-mode"... this is controlled by a squat-switch relay box. However, each individual squat switch is responsible for certain things independent of the relay box. For example, for antiskid the left switch controls outboard wheel brakes and the right switch controls the inboard brakes. Autospoilers won't deploy with only one squat switch in "ground mode," however, if the handle is manually pulled they will extend in that scenario. As far as I understand from my experience and the books I have, the T/R's will not deploy with just one switch in "air mode.''
To Airbubba:
There is an STC available for the 60 that installs a third disc on each side... supposedly it doesn't do much for braking, but it does extend the life of the brakes and the duration for the AD (requiring an A+P to inspect the brakes at certain intervals. The certification on the the 60 quickly required that the wheels/brakes from the older, smaller lears that made it onto the 60 be inspected pretty often. I still hate flying it with the T/R's MEL'd and strapped.
And the emerg. brake is still a red handle under the thrust levers that you slowly, carefully push down.
Again, I have very little idea what happened. I'm not speculating... just offering some information about the 60 to folks who don't know the plane.
Be safe out there all...
And YES TO EMAS! They should be everywhere on runways under 10,000'.
I didn't mean debris went into the engine, I suggested that debris on the runway PRIOR to the Learjet departure MAY have caused a tire burst...similiar to what happened to Concorde. concorde evidently rolled over a piece of metal from a preceeding flight, causing a tire burst which compromised the fuel tanks.
Moderator, I think you should return this line/thread to the original part of the forum.
You will have to forgive me because I may have misunderstood. I guess we really won't know until the NTSB can give more specifics. I guess there are so many "what-if" scenarios. I appreciate all of the insight here. Please let me know if I am being a nuisance. I don't mean to be.
Much of my (very) limited knowledge surrounds the big commercial planes. I used to sit out at DFW at least twice a week getting quizzed on the type of plane that was departing before me. I started doing that when I was seven years old. While most of the girls in class were drawing flowers and dresses, I was drawing DC-10s.
I actually saw the wreckage of the L-1011 at DFW in 86, I guess it was? It was a weird deal because my mom and dad were on 114 and saw the a/c come in. They saw the entire thing happen. My mom was a nurse and a first responder. They took me out to see it the next day. I was taught very early. Actually, my parents were on their way to see me in the hospital. I was in Children's Med Cntr in Dallas, and at that time Parkland was connected to it. The floor I was on faced the helipad. So, a whole group of sick children sat there, noses glued to the window, watching the burn victims come in. It is still hard to describe the patients I saw that day. I felt fortunate being taken to the crash site to see that they brought people out of there alive. It was really surreal, and I will always remember it.
At any rate, I am a total noob at this. I don't want to offend or annoy anyone. I am just trying to learn.
Somehow I missed the most important part of your post... the paragraph about Sarah. Thank you for letting us all get to know her a little. I'm very sorry for your loss.
I have tried to find data on stopping distances with a tire blown. Aside from the squat switch/No reverse issue, I wonder how much a tire or the whole truck would have on stopping distances.
Saturday September 27, 2008 - 2 PM Palomar Airport Magellan Aviation Hangar H-9 2006 Palomar Airport Road Carlsbad, Ca.
As a US Customs Special Agent/Pilot, Jim flew missions in defense of the United States of America for 20 years. He was an outstanding person in every aspect of his life. He was an absolute professional as a pilot. He was the best friend one could ever hope to have.
I watched a couple of the news reports on that website. I guess they had a helicopter or small plane fly the length of the runway and take the same path that the accident plane would have, and they filmed paint markings on the runway that the NTSB used to desginate parts of the aircraft. They stated that the plane travelled one mile after the CVR recorded the tire blowout. I thought that was terribly misleading to the general public. It seemed to imply that the pilot had all of this room to work with, but nobody was talking about how fast a mile goes by when you are moving at 100mph. I would like to commend that news station though for interviewing a 50 year+ captain who stated that the crew made the best decision they could, and going that fast the choice was made to try to slow it down and keep it on the runway. If you watch that footage of the runway, you can see the path the plane made, and it was right on the center and stayed that way until, God Bless them, they just ran out of space.
I did not know Sarah or Jim, but I would have been proud to. It is obvious that they were proficient and professional. It seems to me that they did everything they could to keep that aircraft going straight and slowing down. They told ATC they were going off runway, and they still maintained control of that plane at least in some way because it never diverted off of the centerline path. Forgive me if I am incorrect, but it seems like if this aircraft was not being controlled that it would have rolled, or diverted one way or another to the left or right.
I know that an accident is not something that any pilot wants to experience. I also know that if there is an accident, the pilot's goal would be to save as many souls as possible, and he or she would put every bit of experience and training into action to get the best possible outcome.
I am not really good with things like this, but the point I am trying to get across is that Jim and Sarah's knowledge, training, and experience saved the lives of two people. The optimal result would have been for all souls to come off the plane. Unfortunately, that didn't happen in this case, but I think it is important to focus on and remember Sarah and Jim in this respect. Sarah and Jim were great pilots and did everything they could for their passengers that night. God Bless them for helping to save the lives that they did. It makes me sad that we lost them also, but pilots like Sarah and Jim should always be looked up to and remembered. They simply sound like they were the best of the best.
Again, my condolences to the friends and family of the deceased. I just don't like to see the media try to take away anything from these wonderful pilots.
Nice thoughts, although life is rarely so idyllic. It is possible they made the wrong decision to abandon a takeoff with one bad tyre which is a rather non-event. It is also quite possible they did the best they could with a more complex situation. Let's wait for the investigative outcome to start pouring out praise.
If anyone has contact information or services information for Sarah please PM or email me off the forum. Global Executive is not giving the information out and all I have is Sarah's personal phone # & email. There are a number of people who would like to express their sympathy to her family, and/or attend services.
Though Sarah no longer walks with us . . . she will forever soar in our hearts . . .
Please make memorials in honor of Sarah Hagar Lemmon to Seattle Children's Hospital - Ann Carlson Guild Endowment, Children's Hospital Foundation/ GA Mail stop S-200, P.O. Box 50020, Seattle, WA 98145.
Memorial services will be held Saturday, September 27, 2008 at 1 PM at the Corporate Air center located at the Skagit Regional Airport, 15452 Airport Drive, Burlington, Washington.
Arrangements are under the care of Hawthorne Funeral Home, 1825 E. College Way, Mount Vernon.
Perfect! I'll forward this to all the people who want to know how to contact. We can sign the guest book without intruding on Sarah's family, now know when services are.
From Aviation International News today Blown Tire Eyed in Learjet 60 Crash NTSB investigators are still on scene at the Columbia (S.C.) Metropolitan Airport, sorting through the wreckage of a chartered Learjet 60SE (N999LJ) that crashed just before midnight Friday after the twinjet overran Runway 11 while on takeoff for a flight to Van Nuys (Calif.) Airport. The Learjet–owned by Inter Travel and Services and operated by Global Exec Aviation of Long Beach, Calif.–came to rest on an upslope about 1,200 feet from the end of the runway after using up the 1,000-foot safety overrun and going through a perimeter fence, down a hill and across a road. Two crewmembers and two passengers were killed in the accident. Two remaining passengers survived but suffered severe burns in the post-crash fire; both are expected to make a “full recovery.” An NTSB spokesman told AIN that “evidence points to a tire blowout” at around the time the Learjet copilot made a callout at 80 knots, according to data from the recovered cockpit voice recorder. A tire debris trail was also found at approximately 2,800 feet down the 8,602-foot runway. However, the NTSB is still unsure which tire or tires possibly blew out, as all of the jet’s tires were found deflated at the crash scene. Investigators haven’t yet said if they found any skid marks or scrapes on the runway from the Learjet, but they did indicate that its thrust reversers were found in the stowed position at the crash site.
Some thoughts: - Read that tire blowouts were becoming more common due to crew just not checking tire pressures. In a charter/fractional environment, I know the pilots don't carry tire guages as a rule...in corporate I do, and checked everyday...needless to say the FAA finding was that low tire pressures were usualy as fault of most of these blow outs. Check your pressures guys.... Now honestly, when was the last time you guys got under a jet and checked the pressures? - Tire blow outs- Seems to be the bane of those that like to burn up runways, either overgross, Flex, or just not use all available flaps to get off quick. Needless to say, tire blowouts change the whole V1 scanario, in that an undetected blowout, a big leak ect, creates drags, extends the take off roll with many pilots just waiting and waiting for V1... Heartstrings being pulled, violins playing, ect ect, I have lost friends too, and they screwed up as well...let's not forget the passengers..... 8600 ft of runway, rubber left at 2600 ft....6000 ft to stop the aircraft..or go.. I hope when I lose a tire, I have almost 9000 ft of runway as well...
