empty sectors
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empty sectors
question for you all
under jar ops you need 700hrs to fly single crew aoc aircraft such as piper pa34.
so if you have a cpl/ir and 250hrs and a charter (single crew light twin) goes say glasgow - birmingham - glassgow with the return sector empty. if a nomal aoc guy flew out due to pax, could the guy with 250 and cpl ir (but not on the aoc books) fly the return sector with the aoc pilot just sat there ? or would the pilot on the empty return sector have to be an aoc pilot ?and is this empty sector then loggable as p1 by the low houred guy? or would it be p1s etc? any ideas ?
under jar ops you need 700hrs to fly single crew aoc aircraft such as piper pa34.
so if you have a cpl/ir and 250hrs and a charter (single crew light twin) goes say glasgow - birmingham - glassgow with the return sector empty. if a nomal aoc guy flew out due to pax, could the guy with 250 and cpl ir (but not on the aoc books) fly the return sector with the aoc pilot just sat there ? or would the pilot on the empty return sector have to be an aoc pilot ?and is this empty sector then loggable as p1 by the low houred guy? or would it be p1s etc? any ideas ?
Last edited by LDG_GEAR _MONITOR; 31st Jan 2005 at 12:39.
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So over 200 readers and no one can help me out with the offical answer? or can point me in the right direction as to the answer?
surely someone must know the answer to this !
surely someone must know the answer to this !
I'm guessing that it depends on the type of flight being performed. If it is a scheduled sector that is being flown as part of a route structure, then it would fall under AOC operations, even if no passengers turn up. In that case the low-houred guy would not be eligable for the P1 position. If it is a positioning flight, then you would not neccessarily be operating under the restrictions of the AOC, which might allow the low-houred guy to fly as P1. Whether the insurance or the company manuals would also allow this is a different question.
I've had a look in the JAR-OPS, but the section 1 material doesn't say much about this particular case. You would have to find someone with access to the section 2 material.
I've had a look in the JAR-OPS, but the section 1 material doesn't say much about this particular case. You would have to find someone with access to the section 2 material.
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One option is to find an operator whose pax demand another 'qualified' pilot up front - then be very nice to the P1 for the 'dead-legs'. But be warned, you may find yourself quite unpopular. If the AOC P1 is 'hour building' too, understandably, he/she will probably want to log the 'dead-leg' P1 time too. Tricky one.
Good luck.
Rgds,
C.B.
Good luck.
Rgds,
C.B.
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ask you NAA
usually:
commercial flight = revenue flight = needs to be an aoc pilot or cpl with all requirements fullfilled (hours) to act as a PIC. As it is a single pilot aircraft you need to be the PIC when acting at controls.
non revenue flight = privat flight = no need to act under the laws and restrictions of an AOC. So if you hold the necessary licenses and ratings. Go fly.
Why I stated ask your NAA. Ferry flights are somewhat a grey zone. Your NAA can give you a precise answer.
usually:
commercial flight = revenue flight = needs to be an aoc pilot or cpl with all requirements fullfilled (hours) to act as a PIC. As it is a single pilot aircraft you need to be the PIC when acting at controls.
non revenue flight = privat flight = no need to act under the laws and restrictions of an AOC. So if you hold the necessary licenses and ratings. Go fly.
Why I stated ask your NAA. Ferry flights are somewhat a grey zone. Your NAA can give you a precise answer.
error 401 is correct.
If money changes hands for the flight it is AOC. If the Pax only pay for the outbound and the return positioning flight is not revenue earning then it is under private ops and you can be the captain if you hold the correct licenses.
The only grey are is whether the empty leg is revenue earning. The Campaign Against Aviation Inspectors generally consider it is. However if the company paper work does not show any evidence that the empty leg was charged to the customer, or it specifically shows the leg was not charged then you are fine.
Stay safe and remember the best way to avoid clear air turbulence is to fly in cloud!
MM
If money changes hands for the flight it is AOC. If the Pax only pay for the outbound and the return positioning flight is not revenue earning then it is under private ops and you can be the captain if you hold the correct licenses.
The only grey are is whether the empty leg is revenue earning. The Campaign Against Aviation Inspectors generally consider it is. However if the company paper work does not show any evidence that the empty leg was charged to the customer, or it specifically shows the leg was not charged then you are fine.
Stay safe and remember the best way to avoid clear air turbulence is to fly in cloud!
MM
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I believe Miles has got it right. One would need to be careful as to whether the return dead leg was part of the flight for which money changed hands. In other words, unless the operator offers positioning free of charge (and I know that not many do), then the dead leg is technically part of a public transport undertaking. This has further ramifications in that crew duty times would also apply to the dead leg and, in the case of single engined helicopters, positioning at night should not technically take place.
