BAe ATP. What was wrong with it?
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The BAe ATP reminds me of a British Leyland Ital. No matter how you dress it up it's still a crappy Marina.[/QUOTE]
And the Marina was itself a warmed over Morris Minor... Progress through 1940's (at best!) technology.... Utterly ghastly!
And the Marina was itself a warmed over Morris Minor... Progress through 1940's (at best!) technology.... Utterly ghastly!
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Ah, but the Morris Minor was a wonderful car (not sure the Marina had much of the Morris Minor DNA, but happy to be corrected).
Sorry for the thread drift.
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[Ah, but the Morris Minor was a wonderful car (not sure the Marina had much of the Morris Minor DNA, but happy to be corrected).
Sorry for the thread drift.[/QUOTE]
The engine!
Sorry for the thread drift.[/QUOTE]
The engine!
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Gotta laugh... Many moons ago one of my colleagues took great delight in pointing out the registration of Manx ATP G-OATP (IE, Go ATP) was open to deliberate mis-reading as Goat Pee. Speaks volumes for the level of esteem in which this flying crock of s**t was held!
One can't help but think that the wretched '748 GTi' was one of 't Bungling Baron Waste-o-Space's biggest bungles!
Regarding the Marina and the Minor, back in the early '70s I thought that the Moggie Thou Traveller was a splendid little car for its time, whereas the one and only Marina I ever drove was truly awful! But not even in the same league of awfulness as the Allegro, which actually boasted a square (steering) wheel...
Regarding the Marina and the Minor, back in the early '70s I thought that the Moggie Thou Traveller was a splendid little car for its time, whereas the one and only Marina I ever drove was truly awful! But not even in the same league of awfulness as the Allegro, which actually boasted a square (steering) wheel...
Last edited by BEagle; 21st May 2017 at 09:02.
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Crumbs! We had a number of Marinas' as police cars and I have to say for all the faults they were at least fast and light. Mind I did write one off. We also had the Allegro which was OK for local journeys.
As a passenger in the ATP I travelled on them many times and noticed the difference in the BA / BMI ones but Sunnair of Denmark ATPs' were a class apart leather seats and well maintained.
As a passenger in the ATP I travelled on them many times and noticed the difference in the BA / BMI ones but Sunnair of Denmark ATPs' were a class apart leather seats and well maintained.
Much of the views about cars of that period are subjective because of the lack of quality control at BL which meant two cars the same but made at different times were different beasts. I had a much maligned Allegro and never knew what the fuss was about, zippy, good handling comfortable and I came from a mini cooper . A friend had an allegro made a year after mine and it was a complete dog.
After all the comments about the The ATP and cars it seems odd it wasn't christened the Marina , in fact it was known as the Skoda but of course peopel would not recognise that today since an aircraft called Skoda today would probably have sold about 3000 models
After all the comments about the The ATP and cars it seems odd it wasn't christened the Marina , in fact it was known as the Skoda but of course peopel would not recognise that today since an aircraft called Skoda today would probably have sold about 3000 models
chevvron
Austin Maxi did me fine whilst at JHQ Rheindahlen - seen here near the San Bernadino pass in Switzerland on the way down to Italy for a summer holiday in 1972.
...mind you I did upgrade to a Volvo Estate when finances allowed!
was better than the Austin Maxi
...mind you I did upgrade to a Volvo Estate when finances allowed!
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
OK, more thread creep. The Maxi was fine, it was just a problem it wasn't developed. The making down into a complete double bed was a big advantage (no, before you ask!). One job I had was based in Aberdeen, and my mother was ill down in the midlands. By making the passenger's side into a full single bed, my wife and I were able to drive in shifts through the night, in spite of my having just completed a long day at work. Wouldn't be allowed now of course, but in those days the seat belts weren't compulsory.
The Sun-Air fleet were the last three built, including that final one actually built at Prestwick. Two had been operated in Korea beforehand, and handed back, the third had been sat unsold for over 5 years. They were painted in BA colours and, although a Danish operator, were based in Manchester.
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some real motoring nostalgia courtesy ATP ...Couldn't beat a fire breathing two-horse power 2CV leaning around corners on the Llyn peninsula with room for a a pig ( or similar) in the back , detachable rear seats for a picnic. All were ragtops so you could stop, get some tucker and watch the Gnats,Hunters from Valley.
ATP memories reminds me of SLF experiences in another short haul creation the Short 330/360 surely they had even more potential once retired as garden 'man shelters?'
ATP memories reminds me of SLF experiences in another short haul creation the Short 330/360 surely they had even more potential once retired as garden 'man shelters?'
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Not a salesman, but a driver in its later (white van) years. Where to begin?
134brat said "they designed the simplicity out of it" and that's certainly how it seemed in the pointy end. It felt like more than an update of the 748 (jump seated on one, once) and a long way from a clean sheet design.
Designed to be as quiet and fuel efficient as possible when the world wanted quick regional jets. Low wing design put limits on prop size, and a structure seemingly made from iron girders - good for strength, bad for payload.
First gen efis, which is good, but bespoke CRT's, and some strange electronic checklist (almost ECAM-lite) that never quite worked. Oh and every time a screen blew (almost a monthly event at one point) smiths had to make you another from scratch. Cockpit a strange mix of glass and parts robbed from the spares bin. Comm box from a Victor bomber, park brake from the comet, pressurisation controller from the vanguard, that required constant tweaking if you didn't want to blow your eardrums out.
Engine out climb was, quite frankly, terrifying. Legal, but only just. Enough time to make a cuppa while accelerating to flap retraction. 2 engines, well, you'd get turned out of the way of pretty much everything else on the airway, you were so slow. 240kt TAS in the cruise, if you were lucky.
Freighter had a sliding door (like a transit van) which would freeze shut if there was any moisture in a 30mi radius. To unfreeze it? Wait for spring...
Not enough elevator authority for flap 29 landings, meant you would have to trim in the flare. Never seen that before. Or since.
If you de-iced with (iirc) type 2 fluid, there was a real chance the tail would be aerodynamically blanked, meaning you wouldn't be able to rotate until something like Vr + 40.
Oh and everything that needs replacing was "fettle to fit". Using about 3 different size spanners (Imperial, Metric and Whitworth apparently).
not sure what BAe were thinking when they put this together. Surely a clean sheet design, or a "quick and dirty" re engine of the 748 would have been a better option? We might just have kept civil airliner production in the uk if that was the case. But, given BAe's record at project management, maybe not.
At least "Robbie" Robinson loved it. I liked it, it was my first type, but I was in no illusions as to its shortcomings.
134brat said "they designed the simplicity out of it" and that's certainly how it seemed in the pointy end. It felt like more than an update of the 748 (jump seated on one, once) and a long way from a clean sheet design.
Designed to be as quiet and fuel efficient as possible when the world wanted quick regional jets. Low wing design put limits on prop size, and a structure seemingly made from iron girders - good for strength, bad for payload.
First gen efis, which is good, but bespoke CRT's, and some strange electronic checklist (almost ECAM-lite) that never quite worked. Oh and every time a screen blew (almost a monthly event at one point) smiths had to make you another from scratch. Cockpit a strange mix of glass and parts robbed from the spares bin. Comm box from a Victor bomber, park brake from the comet, pressurisation controller from the vanguard, that required constant tweaking if you didn't want to blow your eardrums out.
Engine out climb was, quite frankly, terrifying. Legal, but only just. Enough time to make a cuppa while accelerating to flap retraction. 2 engines, well, you'd get turned out of the way of pretty much everything else on the airway, you were so slow. 240kt TAS in the cruise, if you were lucky.
Freighter had a sliding door (like a transit van) which would freeze shut if there was any moisture in a 30mi radius. To unfreeze it? Wait for spring...
Not enough elevator authority for flap 29 landings, meant you would have to trim in the flare. Never seen that before. Or since.
If you de-iced with (iirc) type 2 fluid, there was a real chance the tail would be aerodynamically blanked, meaning you wouldn't be able to rotate until something like Vr + 40.
Oh and everything that needs replacing was "fettle to fit". Using about 3 different size spanners (Imperial, Metric and Whitworth apparently).
not sure what BAe were thinking when they put this together. Surely a clean sheet design, or a "quick and dirty" re engine of the 748 would have been a better option? We might just have kept civil airliner production in the uk if that was the case. But, given BAe's record at project management, maybe not.
At least "Robbie" Robinson loved it. I liked it, it was my first type, but I was in no illusions as to its shortcomings.
But so true
Seems always in the UK aerospace industry, the objective was simply to build a brick ****house structure. Payload was never a requirement
Never flew it .
F50 was a good one though. For an outdated machine at the time ( late (90's) Fun to fly as well
Thought police antagonist
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" the objective was simply to build a brick ****house structure"
You can safely delete the preface of brick when commenting on the ATP..
I had a close look at the Sun-Air ones in Denmark and they were clearly rarely used and in very good condition. One look at the flaps underneath the exhaust was enough really....they were still intact from manufacturer and didn't have any of the usual patches / PRC / any chunk of metal will do to cover the cracks.....there were a lot of cracks in that area.
As a bit of thread drift, we were taken to the North of Denmark in their J31...it was a "shade lumpy" at low level below about 3000ft ( ish ) but thereafter was fine. Alas, travelling with me was the quintessential "Brit abroad meets dedicated Waste of Space " employee...he would only eat junk food when out of the UK, or, in Toulouse, "steak,well done, and chips !"...you can imagine how that went down with the hotel staff and strangely enough, my meals arrived before his.....however, on the day, it was amusing to watch his knuckles turning white as he gripped the seat arm on take off and on the approach.....along with the white face and "OMG, get me out of here ! look".
Normally, I am very sympathetic to people who are afraid of flying, but, sometimes, karma as they say comes in many forms.
You can safely delete the preface of brick when commenting on the ATP..
I had a close look at the Sun-Air ones in Denmark and they were clearly rarely used and in very good condition. One look at the flaps underneath the exhaust was enough really....they were still intact from manufacturer and didn't have any of the usual patches / PRC / any chunk of metal will do to cover the cracks.....there were a lot of cracks in that area.
As a bit of thread drift, we were taken to the North of Denmark in their J31...it was a "shade lumpy" at low level below about 3000ft ( ish ) but thereafter was fine. Alas, travelling with me was the quintessential "Brit abroad meets dedicated Waste of Space " employee...he would only eat junk food when out of the UK, or, in Toulouse, "steak,well done, and chips !"...you can imagine how that went down with the hotel staff and strangely enough, my meals arrived before his.....however, on the day, it was amusing to watch his knuckles turning white as he gripped the seat arm on take off and on the approach.....along with the white face and "OMG, get me out of here ! look".
Normally, I am very sympathetic to people who are afraid of flying, but, sometimes, karma as they say comes in many forms.
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Originally Posted by BEagle
... the Allegro, which actually boasted a square (steering) wheel...
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Olympus
You are correct. I learned to drive in one (1977) with the Quartic wheel, the car was about a year old, but then was changed to one with a normal steering wheel on the day of my test.
Seems a long time ago !
Regards
Mr Mac
You are correct. I learned to drive in one (1977) with the Quartic wheel, the car was about a year old, but then was changed to one with a normal steering wheel on the day of my test.
Seems a long time ago !
Regards
Mr Mac
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The Sun-Air fleet were the last three built, including that final one actually built at Prestwick.