BAe ATP. What was wrong with it?
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I'm not privy to the details of the story, but a Soviet delegation arrived in the mid-80s with an 'interest' in licence-production of the ATP. It all fizzled-out and not long afterwards the Il-114 emerged, which seems to be an ATP with a dose of Soviet ruggedness applied. Later '114s even had the same engines.
Edit: oh good, I didn't imagine the entire thing:
http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPD...20-%201158.PDF
Edit: oh good, I didn't imagine the entire thing:
http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPD...20-%201158.PDF
Russia's requirement could be for more than 100 ATPs...
I'm not privy to the details of the story, but a Soviet delegation arrived in the mid-80s with an 'interest' in licence-production of the ATP. It all fizzled-out and not long afterwards the Il-114 emerged, which seems to be an ATP with a dose of Soviet ruggedness applied. Later '114s even had the same engines.
Edit: oh good, I didn't imagine the entire thing:
http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPD...20-%201158.PDF
Edit: oh good, I didn't imagine the entire thing:
http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPD...20-%201158.PDF
At the time, we did wonder why the delegation were taking all those notes.
Yes, fair comment.
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The whole episode seems quite odd. The Soviets were quite capable of building efficient airframes which could operate from -40 to +50 Celsius but where they had problems was with long-life, efficient engines. I would have expected them to be sniffing around P&W Canada rather than an airframer in the UK.
The Dash 7 was initially conceived and marketed as a short-runway city centre airport STOL aircraft, high business pax fares so the costs of 4 engines was secondary. De Havilland had found that some of the predecessor 19-seat Twin Otter were starting to be used on such operations, so went for a 50-seat proper airliner. That market never really worked out for them, and of about 100 built some went to regular short haul runs at normal airports, which was wasteful, and some to bush/rough strip operators, which really didn't justify a new, expensive aircraft. The good old PT6 engine was also showing its age (I think it was the last new type to use it).
So they reduced the engines from 4 to 2, with the new PW100, reduced the fuselage length to a 37-seater to suit, and that was the initial Dash 8. They sold quite a few, but it took a while to bring together the twin engines (once P&W came up with a more powerful one) and the 50-seater capacity, which became the definitive type of the era.
The current larger still Dash 8-Q400 is a substantial rework all round, and really a different type.
The IL-114 scarcely entered production, only a handful were built and hardly any of those used.
There were two which ostensibly ran with Vyborg Airlines in the 2000s. Apparently their only fleet members. I'm a regular into St Petersburg, and from my first visit in 2003, to about 2010 when they vanished, they both sat there side-by-side in the same position on the airfield alongside the north runway, with the props taken off. I presume they never moved in that time.
So they reduced the engines from 4 to 2, with the new PW100, reduced the fuselage length to a 37-seater to suit, and that was the initial Dash 8. They sold quite a few, but it took a while to bring together the twin engines (once P&W came up with a more powerful one) and the 50-seater capacity, which became the definitive type of the era.
The current larger still Dash 8-Q400 is a substantial rework all round, and really a different type.
not long afterwards the Il-114 emerged, which seems to be an ATP with a dose of Soviet ruggedness applied. Later '114s even had the same engines.
There were two which ostensibly ran with Vyborg Airlines in the 2000s. Apparently their only fleet members. I'm a regular into St Petersburg, and from my first visit in 2003, to about 2010 when they vanished, they both sat there side-by-side in the same position on the airfield alongside the north runway, with the props taken off. I presume they never moved in that time.
Last edited by WHBM; 8th May 2017 at 10:08.
Just re-reading an article in Aviation News of July 2013 about the departure of the last ex-Air Atlantic Lockheed Electra to Canada. Apparently AA had got to 99% despatch reliability with the Electra which "required a lot of maintenance.- on average it took twice the number of man hours to service the Electra compared to Atlantics other workhorse-the BAe ATP". Could that be because it had twice the number of engines or doesn't that count?
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Be careful; my next door neighbour went to st Petersburg - and came back with a wife!
I was jesting with a Russian from Moscow only a few days ago, when I told him that I had been to SPb during a February he replied "You're a hero"
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"...a hero"?.. just for visiting St. Petersburg , Russia, in February? Temps are similar to a large area of Canada. No big deal.
Regarding the maintenance of the Air Atlantic Lockheed L-188 Electra. The L-188 was developed over 30 years prior to the BAe ATP, plus the Electra was not a development of a previous Lockheed design. Plenty of electrical relays/servos on the old L-188... The Allison engine is quite reliable.
Buffalo Airways operated their ex-Air Atlantic and Zantop L-188's in conditions more severe than St. Petersburg..when some of the airframes were over 50 years of age..
Regarding the maintenance of the Air Atlantic Lockheed L-188 Electra. The L-188 was developed over 30 years prior to the BAe ATP, plus the Electra was not a development of a previous Lockheed design. Plenty of electrical relays/servos on the old L-188... The Allison engine is quite reliable.
Buffalo Airways operated their ex-Air Atlantic and Zantop L-188's in conditions more severe than St. Petersburg..when some of the airframes were over 50 years of age..
Mrs WHBM (elegent, charming, now mama to Little Miss WHBM 
) is from St Pete, and has introduced me to a fascinating world, even tolerating Monino aircraft museum, one of everything (literally) the Soviets ever did, on our first trip down to Moscow. In those early times IL-62s were supposedly all withdrawn - but there was one, Kras Air, lining up behind our BA A320 at St Pete on my first 2003 trip. And you will still, today, see the odd Tu154 go through there, even if the timetable says otherwise.
Yes, Russia and Canada are similar, in many ways.
We had -40C one night at New Year and the central heating oil froze ...
(elegent, charming, now mama to Little Miss WHBM ) is from St Pete, and has introduced me to a fascinating world, even tolerating Monino aircraft museum, one of everything (literally) the Soviets ever did, on our first trip down to Moscow. In those early times IL-62s were supposedly all withdrawn - but there was one, Kras Air, lining up behind our BA A320 at St Pete on my first 2003 trip. And you will still, today, see the odd Tu154 go through there, even if the timetable says otherwise.Yes, Russia and Canada are similar, in many ways.
We had -40C one night at New Year and the central heating oil froze ...
I can only assume it was a list of 'Design aspects to avoid'.
The whole episode seems quite odd. The Soviets were quite capable of building efficient airframes which could operate from -40 to +50 Celsius but where they had problems was with long-life, efficient engines. I would have expected them to be sniffing around P&W Canada rather than an airframer in the UK.
The whole episode seems quite odd. The Soviets were quite capable of building efficient airframes which could operate from -40 to +50 Celsius but where they had problems was with long-life, efficient engines. I would have expected them to be sniffing around P&W Canada rather than an airframer in the UK.
Someone further up the thread (I'm sorry, I'm on mobile so can't easily check) mentioned that the ATP was designed around a 3,000hp Rolls Royce engine, but when that was cancelled, BAe took the next biggest P&W Canada engine, the 126 at about 2200hp.
Flying it, I always thought it had plenty of rudder (handy in a x-wind!) but obviously not quite enough power.
Is the rumour of the RR 3000hp engine true?
Edit; it was rightbank that provided anecdotal evidence about the ATP engine.
Flying it, I always thought it had plenty of rudder (handy in a x-wind!) but obviously not quite enough power.
Is the rumour of the RR 3000hp engine true?
Edit; it was rightbank that provided anecdotal evidence about the ATP engine.
Last edited by thetimesreader84; 8th May 2017 at 16:12.
Most engine (and airframe) manufacturers have a raft of preliminary design studies on the go at any given time, so it wouldn't be surprising if there had been a 3,000 hp design on the back of an envelope somewhere in Derby.
But given that PWC had already made huge inroads into the market, powering pretty well everything else in that category, it's no surprise that it never saw the light of day if the ATP was likely to be its only application.
But given that PWC had already made huge inroads into the market, powering pretty well everything else in that category, it's no surprise that it never saw the light of day if the ATP was likely to be its only application.
My understanding at the time was that RR had totally lost interest in the turboprop engine market. BAe tried to encourage them, but they were having none of it. That being the case, I assume the Dart was the last turboprop engine they produced?
I'm not sure whether the Tyne or Dart would qualify as the last turboprop - both were being produced until the mid-80s for the Transall/Atlantic and F-27, respectively.
And if you include R-R's acquisition of Allison, they are still building turboprops today.
And if you include R-R's acquisition of Allison, they are still building turboprops today.
They came back, about 10 years after the ATP was designed, buying up Allison in the USA, which brought a range of turboprops (eg on the Hercules) into the company, which now trades as Rolls-Royce North America.
OK, discounting Rolls-Royce Corp (which is what Allison is now known as), the last significant Derby turboprop event was an amendment to the Dart Type Certificate in 1985, with the addition of the Dart 552 (for the F-27/748).
Unlike the Dart's, the Tyne TC is no longer current as only military applications are still flying, so it's still a toss-up between those two engines as to which was last in production.
Unlike the Dart's, the Tyne TC is no longer current as only military applications are still flying, so it's still a toss-up between those two engines as to which was last in production.
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The proposed 3000 - 4000 shp RR turboprop was the RB.510. At one point there was a proposal for a 748 successor using a pair of those engines on a new wing mated to mostly-a-146 fuselage.
Fokker were apparently also interested in it for the F.27 successor but had to scale-back to what became the F.50 when Rolls dropped the engine, presumably around 1983, constraining their choice to the PW12_. Odd that they didn't go with the T64 which sat in exactly the same powerband as the RR proposal, but perhaps the economics didn't work.
RR now also own Continental, which explains a Cessna 150 I saw the other day with R/R decals on the engine hood!
Fokker were apparently also interested in it for the F.27 successor but had to scale-back to what became the F.50 when Rolls dropped the engine, presumably around 1983, constraining their choice to the PW12_. Odd that they didn't go with the T64 which sat in exactly the same powerband as the RR proposal, but perhaps the economics didn't work.
RR now also own Continental, which explains a Cessna 150 I saw the other day with R/R decals on the engine hood!