BAe ATP. What was wrong with it?
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Siargao Island
Posts: 1,043
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You're funny 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: RPVI
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I believe in some quarters ATP stood for "Another Technical Problem". I seem to remember issues with the undercarriage but doubtless people with a more intimate knowledge will be along shortly. I only flew on it once, as SLF, and I must say it seemed to be an improvement over the 748.
In fairness to the ATP, said captain confirmed a couple of years later that it was OK once the initial bugs were ironed out. By that time however the ATP / Jetstream 61 had lost out to the ATR series and the rest is history.
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: RPVI
Posts: 70
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The 748 was a product of foresight on the part of Avro who could see a gap in the market when piston types were aging fast, Fokker saw the same opportunity and produced the F27 and both types were pretty successful.
The ATP was conceived as an update of the 748 but BAe tried too hard to make it 'advanced' or as a BAe trainer told me "they took the 748 and designed all the simplicity out of it". The electrical wiring caused many problems and airframe or prop de ice also caused lots of delays. The long noseleg option was supposed to make it possible to operate from airbridges but that was little used in service. It had a not-quite-FADEC engine control systems and a rudder boost system which were also problematic. I had 15 years of trying to maintain them and it was a laugh a minute!
The ATP was conceived as an update of the 748 but BAe tried too hard to make it 'advanced' or as a BAe trainer told me "they took the 748 and designed all the simplicity out of it". The electrical wiring caused many problems and airframe or prop de ice also caused lots of delays. The long noseleg option was supposed to make it possible to operate from airbridges but that was little used in service. It had a not-quite-FADEC engine control systems and a rudder boost system which were also problematic. I had 15 years of trying to maintain them and it was a laugh a minute!
The woes of the ATP accurately summarised in a single sentence. Well done!
I never flew the pax version, but my initial type course was based around the passenger ATP, before going back to the airline for freighter differences. 2 things always puzzled me, and maybe some who were around in the early days could help?
1) Why did the forward baggage bay get its own, bespoke door, yet to load the rear hold you needed to disassemble the rear bulkhead?
And 2) why could the RNav not hold a course between 330 and 030 degrees (i.e. North)? Instead it would snake its way along, terrifying ATC and leading to mild sea sickness.
Harry Wayfarers - Thanks, I think?
1) Why did the forward baggage bay get its own, bespoke door, yet to load the rear hold you needed to disassemble the rear bulkhead?
And 2) why could the RNav not hold a course between 330 and 030 degrees (i.e. North)? Instead it would snake its way along, terrifying ATC and leading to mild sea sickness.
Harry Wayfarers - Thanks, I think?
Thought police antagonist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
Posts: 1,371
Received 110 Likes
on
77 Posts
" and in subsequent years always seemed to attract unfavourable comments from people inside the aviation community.
Was the ATP not fit for purpose, and if so, on what grounds?
Well, to put it politely, and with absolutely no offence intended towards yourself, you will have read the replies as to your question.
Probably the biggest heap of junk ever to gain certification and actually engage in revenue flights thereafter.
Where to begin.....lets start with the shoot bolts on the rear doors freezing solid, and the design resembled the Manx emblem, only with four legs, O2 replenishment ?...for "some considerable time"...erm, remove bottle from aircraft, air stairs...what better place to locate the exterior selection than....a button at the base of the fwd entrance door, the flap drive gearbox....lifted from the 748 and thus the replenishment point was, erm, 5/16 Whit. An engine change ?..about a week give or take...the oil cooler was always "fun"...the engine and airframe anti-ice controllers carefully buried under the fuselage, watching the horizontal stab vibrate in flight...as your meal vibrated itself across the table, one loom on the left had side of the fuselage, held together with tie wraps....the "hand crafted "...thank you, Chadderton, leading edge de-icing boots...the word "interchangeability" being beyond their comprehension, the various holes as an afterthought mod. which should have ben there initially, the "Hearts and Minds" meeting at Woodford, nice sandwiches however, as to the complaints by operators and how, as ever, Waste of Space were "addressing the issues", the completely inaccessible grease nipples on the nose u/c and not forgetting the gust locks....and then there was the ( euphemism ) "Product Support".....
I was involved in a little cost reduction project for the heap and thus went to a few locations, including that little place near Brooklands. .
A nice little scam taking place there, and so wonderfully simple to enact....one example being....hands up anybody who has encountered a static inverter with..an elapsed time counter inside ?. Some of the strip reports were creative enough to win the Man Booker prize....and so easy when, until I arrived, no engineer actually got to read the invoices.
By a "strange coincidence " the project ceased somewhat abruptly shortly thereafter.
BWA at Southend?...nice bunch of hard working guys who really tried to offer a cost effective solution in the case of the escape slides....however, because some of their infrastructure wasn't suitably "glossy and shiny"...always a winner for the morons in procurement at Woodford, they didn't get the contract.
And finally, the proud holder of possibly the shortest flight with an IFSD in history...Loganair ...from Woodford to MAN.
Was the ATP not fit for purpose, and if so, on what grounds?
Well, to put it politely, and with absolutely no offence intended towards yourself, you will have read the replies as to your question.
Probably the biggest heap of junk ever to gain certification and actually engage in revenue flights thereafter.
Where to begin.....lets start with the shoot bolts on the rear doors freezing solid, and the design resembled the Manx emblem, only with four legs, O2 replenishment ?...for "some considerable time"...erm, remove bottle from aircraft, air stairs...what better place to locate the exterior selection than....a button at the base of the fwd entrance door, the flap drive gearbox....lifted from the 748 and thus the replenishment point was, erm, 5/16 Whit. An engine change ?..about a week give or take...the oil cooler was always "fun"...the engine and airframe anti-ice controllers carefully buried under the fuselage, watching the horizontal stab vibrate in flight...as your meal vibrated itself across the table, one loom on the left had side of the fuselage, held together with tie wraps....the "hand crafted "...thank you, Chadderton, leading edge de-icing boots...the word "interchangeability" being beyond their comprehension, the various holes as an afterthought mod. which should have ben there initially, the "Hearts and Minds" meeting at Woodford, nice sandwiches however, as to the complaints by operators and how, as ever, Waste of Space were "addressing the issues", the completely inaccessible grease nipples on the nose u/c and not forgetting the gust locks....and then there was the ( euphemism ) "Product Support".....
I was involved in a little cost reduction project for the heap and thus went to a few locations, including that little place near Brooklands. .
A nice little scam taking place there, and so wonderfully simple to enact....one example being....hands up anybody who has encountered a static inverter with..an elapsed time counter inside ?. Some of the strip reports were creative enough to win the Man Booker prize....and so easy when, until I arrived, no engineer actually got to read the invoices.
By a "strange coincidence " the project ceased somewhat abruptly shortly thereafter.
BWA at Southend?...nice bunch of hard working guys who really tried to offer a cost effective solution in the case of the escape slides....however, because some of their infrastructure wasn't suitably "glossy and shiny"...always a winner for the morons in procurement at Woodford, they didn't get the contract.
And finally, the proud holder of possibly the shortest flight with an IFSD in history...Loganair ...from Woodford to MAN.
Krystal & chips, you've reminded me of the joys of the external gust locks!
One lever in the cockpit, to put the (internal) gust lock in place. The book said it's good up to a 50kt (iirc) wind, except that any breeze more forceful than a gnats f@rt would cause the elevator and rudder to flap around like a parrot with mustard up its... nose. Needless to say, not good for the control surfaces or anything connected to them, and after having an aircraft need a rudder change, the rule came down from on high - "put the external gust locks in after each flight".
So picture the scene. It's 6.30am in Guernsey. It's still dark, because it's winter. It's raining sideways with a force that you only get from being at the highest point on a lump of rock at the end of a funnel leading from the North Atlantic to the channel. Just got to put the gust locks in, then go home.
The £12.99 B&Q step ladders come out, assembled in accordance with the 45 minute course we'd been on ("elf an safetee") and clamber up, rudder lock in hand, to be nearly decapitated by a rudder jibing to and fro. Grabbing hold of the bottom, I finally get what Mr Bowden was saying all those years ago in physics, Force really does equal mass times acceleration, and this force nearly threw me into the sea.
"I'll go into the cockpit, and try to hold the rudder pedals steady" said the captain, running away before his coat got wet. Rank has it's privilege I suppose, and this almost did the trick, except the skippers idea of central was about 6" off central - might explain his crosswind technique! Anyway, after much shouting, wiggling and swearing, I bravely forced the gust lock home, revealing any number of defunct airlines logos beneath the paint scratched off. Slung the ladders into the now empty cargo hold, and off to the hotel we went.
Living the dream.
One lever in the cockpit, to put the (internal) gust lock in place. The book said it's good up to a 50kt (iirc) wind, except that any breeze more forceful than a gnats f@rt would cause the elevator and rudder to flap around like a parrot with mustard up its... nose. Needless to say, not good for the control surfaces or anything connected to them, and after having an aircraft need a rudder change, the rule came down from on high - "put the external gust locks in after each flight".
So picture the scene. It's 6.30am in Guernsey. It's still dark, because it's winter. It's raining sideways with a force that you only get from being at the highest point on a lump of rock at the end of a funnel leading from the North Atlantic to the channel. Just got to put the gust locks in, then go home.
The £12.99 B&Q step ladders come out, assembled in accordance with the 45 minute course we'd been on ("elf an safetee") and clamber up, rudder lock in hand, to be nearly decapitated by a rudder jibing to and fro. Grabbing hold of the bottom, I finally get what Mr Bowden was saying all those years ago in physics, Force really does equal mass times acceleration, and this force nearly threw me into the sea.
"I'll go into the cockpit, and try to hold the rudder pedals steady" said the captain, running away before his coat got wet. Rank has it's privilege I suppose, and this almost did the trick, except the skippers idea of central was about 6" off central - might explain his crosswind technique! Anyway, after much shouting, wiggling and swearing, I bravely forced the gust lock home, revealing any number of defunct airlines logos beneath the paint scratched off. Slung the ladders into the now empty cargo hold, and off to the hotel we went.
Living the dream.
I'm disappointed to hear the gust locks were still iffy. Having had a slight personal connection with the Sumburgh 748 accident (gust locks jammed after full/free check), I would have hoped for a bit of a wake up call. I believe there was a further 748 accident along the same lines at Liverpool later.
Thought police antagonist
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Where I always have been...firmly in the real world
Posts: 1,371
Received 110 Likes
on
77 Posts
" I would have hoped for a bit of a wake up call " .
I seem to recall the heap of junk provided this, in one sense, with a very fortunate ( to say the least ) encounter with the ground at Stornoway, I could be wrong as to the location, but certainly at one of the Scottish islands destinations.
I seem to recall the heap of junk provided this, in one sense, with a very fortunate ( to say the least ) encounter with the ground at Stornoway, I could be wrong as to the location, but certainly at one of the Scottish islands destinations.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Very close to the Theatre of Dreams!
Posts: 156
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flew as Pax on them a few times to Fraggle before BA switched to the Dash. Found them very noisy up front but not too bad near the back. also had a mate who used to machine the undercarraige legs when they first came out, even back then he said they always looked dodgy. 
I remember the beast being touted as the 'Super 748' at one of BAe's otherwise
splendid operator conferences. Next I saw it, it was an 'ATP'.
Perhaps 'Super 748' could have been construed as false advertising ! 'ZG
splendid operator conferences. Next I saw it, it was an 'ATP'.
Perhaps 'Super 748' could have been construed as false advertising ! 'ZG
I always had the other impression, that the engineers got a bit carried away with the "nice to haves" leaving a bit of a dogs dinner for the sales people to market.
The truth probably lies between the two?
The truth probably lies between the two?
The "Super 748", which first flew in 1984 a couple of years before the ATP, was the marketing designation for an updated Series 2B with an improved flight deck, revised galley and "hushkitted Darts"(!).
Richard
Guys , seems like very few fans so far , for The Wigwam , BAT , ADVANCED Technical Problem , Parrot , Budgies Big Bruvver .
4 V. Happy years on her , challenging and lots of good points ..... However . If she’d have been built East of the Pennines ; and used £1 gizmos instead of 50P gizmos ...... she’d have been much better !
A few corrections .. 1st 20 pax went in the BACK , if less than 20 . We had trolley loads of ballast bags [ shingle ] around the network to put in the ‘boot’ . Apart from empty legs back from Germany ... filled up the boot with crates of Engineers beer , and flogged it around the hangar when back in the North .
Long nose gear , supposedly for airbridges . Worked ok . Short noselegs came in and worked equally well on airbridges around the Fatherland and most of UK domestics.
Yep Super 748 had switchery of the ATP in cockpit [ LIAT ] .
Like any modded a/c she was heavier than a clean sheet design .
Engine deicers were a problem early on in N Europe winters . Manx engineer told our guys the fix ... undo some screws [ drains ] and blow out with hairdryers when a/c stops for the night .
Deice boots yep ; individually fettled to fit each a/c . Our 1st batch supposedly were cast off from a Californian order and had V.V. thin boots . Thus the boots wore out very quickly , and a long slow fit of new ones ! Was told Phantom canopies were the same , each one drilled in a different pattern at the whim of the fitter .
About a year or so in ’G-BTPF’ had the 1st update program completed . Conference for operators at Woodford ... ‘’ Best thing since sliced bread ‘’ from Bae ....
‘’ Mmmm ‘’says fleet boss ...’’ just heard PF is Northbound up South corridor, and shut down No. 1 eng. .... Any ideas ? Russians say she can land at Halle’ , but best guess is she’s going on to Tegel ‘’
1st uk a/c certified to JAR ,not BCAR . So wot we say .... aileron control rod breaks in LSI [ 70 kts on ground ]..... JAR only 52 kts tailwind on ground , BCAR 65-70 kts tailwind on ground .
X-wind limit ,more a max demonstrated , as 60 kts across in Bennie was not uncommon . U/C like the brick built Kha*** . Then close RWY for 30 mins , pax off , pax on . Easy Batt start , Reverse up Rwy , launch , job done .
Stornoway rwy 36 , 40 kts from the East Apr '92 . Flare only just started Flap29 , rudder just starting to kick off drift .
Internal controls ok , but a Shetland n/s ... park into overnight forecast wind . External control locks in ... V. young fit f/os , skippers young ish too ! 100kts really hammered the hotel , a/c snug .
Cargo holds supposedly not as good as the Budgie , Galley wall unbolted and swung around to load the boot . Repatriation of coffins more difficult than Budgie [ luckily Hebridean folk not too tall ]
Total 600kgs an hour at 240 kts TAS . 6 ½ tonne payload ish . Newspaper flights equated to 4 stacks about 18 inches high . Island flights seat back sacks for small freight .
CAT 2 Man land 100ft radio and 400m came in too late [ lack of investment and late simulator ] .
Both feet on the panel and Puuuull at Vr , trimming into the flare , heavy ailerons , all normal stuff .
1 in 1 descents [ empty ] , got to FL 250 once . Doors freezing on winter N Sea crossings [ hairdryers fitted ] ; daylight through back door seals . All ATP delights .
Atlantic 252 on the ADF , knowing the whole fleet would be tuned in at 0730ish waiting for a dedication .
16 ft diameter 6 bladed plastic props , looked Huge when shutdown on your side on 6 monthly base checks / IRs [ ‘til sim came in ].
That's it folks all typed out .
rgds condor .
4 V. Happy years on her , challenging and lots of good points ..... However . If she’d have been built East of the Pennines ; and used £1 gizmos instead of 50P gizmos ...... she’d have been much better !
A few corrections .. 1st 20 pax went in the BACK , if less than 20 . We had trolley loads of ballast bags [ shingle ] around the network to put in the ‘boot’ . Apart from empty legs back from Germany ... filled up the boot with crates of Engineers beer , and flogged it around the hangar when back in the North .
Long nose gear , supposedly for airbridges . Worked ok . Short noselegs came in and worked equally well on airbridges around the Fatherland and most of UK domestics.
Yep Super 748 had switchery of the ATP in cockpit [ LIAT ] .
Like any modded a/c she was heavier than a clean sheet design .
Engine deicers were a problem early on in N Europe winters . Manx engineer told our guys the fix ... undo some screws [ drains ] and blow out with hairdryers when a/c stops for the night .
Deice boots yep ; individually fettled to fit each a/c . Our 1st batch supposedly were cast off from a Californian order and had V.V. thin boots . Thus the boots wore out very quickly , and a long slow fit of new ones ! Was told Phantom canopies were the same , each one drilled in a different pattern at the whim of the fitter .
About a year or so in ’G-BTPF’ had the 1st update program completed . Conference for operators at Woodford ... ‘’ Best thing since sliced bread ‘’ from Bae ....
‘’ Mmmm ‘’says fleet boss ...’’ just heard PF is Northbound up South corridor, and shut down No. 1 eng. .... Any ideas ? Russians say she can land at Halle’ , but best guess is she’s going on to Tegel ‘’
1st uk a/c certified to JAR ,not BCAR . So wot we say .... aileron control rod breaks in LSI [ 70 kts on ground ]..... JAR only 52 kts tailwind on ground , BCAR 65-70 kts tailwind on ground .
X-wind limit ,more a max demonstrated , as 60 kts across in Bennie was not uncommon . U/C like the brick built Kha*** . Then close RWY for 30 mins , pax off , pax on . Easy Batt start , Reverse up Rwy , launch , job done .
Stornoway rwy 36 , 40 kts from the East Apr '92 . Flare only just started Flap29 , rudder just starting to kick off drift .
Internal controls ok , but a Shetland n/s ... park into overnight forecast wind . External control locks in ... V. young fit f/os , skippers young ish too ! 100kts really hammered the hotel , a/c snug .
Cargo holds supposedly not as good as the Budgie , Galley wall unbolted and swung around to load the boot . Repatriation of coffins more difficult than Budgie [ luckily Hebridean folk not too tall ]
Total 600kgs an hour at 240 kts TAS . 6 ½ tonne payload ish . Newspaper flights equated to 4 stacks about 18 inches high . Island flights seat back sacks for small freight .
CAT 2 Man land 100ft radio and 400m came in too late [ lack of investment and late simulator ] .
Both feet on the panel and Puuuull at Vr , trimming into the flare , heavy ailerons , all normal stuff .
1 in 1 descents [ empty ] , got to FL 250 once . Doors freezing on winter N Sea crossings [ hairdryers fitted ] ; daylight through back door seals . All ATP delights .
Atlantic 252 on the ADF , knowing the whole fleet would be tuned in at 0730ish waiting for a dedication .
16 ft diameter 6 bladed plastic props , looked Huge when shutdown on your side on 6 monthly base checks / IRs [ ‘til sim came in ].
That's it folks all typed out .
rgds condor .
Wasn't it the ATP that had a drain hole smack through the middle of an electric heating mat in the engine intake? I've never worked with them or flown on them but some ex-colleagues were always happy to explain the reasons behind the 'Another Technical Problem' moniker.