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UK Caravelle?

Old 21st Dec 2016, 16:31
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The most striking Caravelle I remember at Glasgow was Transavia. I thought it the most exotic, other than the Super Connie, aeroplane I had ever seen.
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Old 21st Dec 2016, 16:35
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Old 21st Dec 2016, 21:29
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Sterling Trans Atlantic Caravelle operations

In 1967 Sud Aviation began to deliver Caravelles fitted with P&W JT8D-9 which raised the MTOW to 123,460 lb MTOW meaning Sterling could carry 109 pax 4,000km. These aircraft had a modified fin for twin Collins HF transceivers and a belly tank. With these they commenced transatlantic flights ( on a twin long before ETOPS !). First service 23/6/70 Copenhagen - Omaha Nebraska via tech stops at Kevlavik and Gander. In December 70 they flew Oslo- Gander direct 2,268 nm ( 4,200 km )in 5 hr 33 mins. Long range cruise was around 280 kts IAS between FL310 and FL350. The aircraft were fitted with HF SELCAL and LORAN carried in the side pockets of the cockpit. Later the aircraft were fitted with VLF Omega navigation.
50 flights were operated in 1971 and fifty in 1972 in 1972 MTOW was raised to 125,660 lbs, but 1973 only twenty flights were undertaken as the opposition started to field higher capacity 4 engined aircraft in competition.
Above info from John Wegg's previously mentioned book.
Sadly the only one I could find for sale is £435, the French editions are a bit cheaper and more numerous.
Hope it helps.
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David

Last edited by The AvgasDinosaur; 21st Dec 2016 at 21:36. Reason: Overrule spull chucker
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Old 21st Dec 2016, 21:58
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First service 23/6/70 Copenhagen - Omaha Nebraska via tech stops at Kevlavik and Gander.
I presume Omaha was an intermediate fuel stop on the way to LAX or SFO, as I described above. But I'm surprised at the routing quoted, for I had believed they used Bangor rather than Gander. Omaha had, I understand, no US immigration facility, and there's no pre-clearance at Gander. Nor has the US accepted intermediate stops prior to an onward leg within the country without immigration clearance. Doing this at the first point has always been required.
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Old 21st Dec 2016, 22:52
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Originally Posted by suninmyeyes
I used to fly on a Caravelle regularly between 1977 and 1978 from Heathrow to Luxembourg with Luxair. I remember it being quite quiet inside. The cabin crew complained that they did not have any control of the temperature in the passenger cabin and were always asking the flight crew to turn it up or down. Correct me if I am wrong but I think it was the first of the tail mounted jets. I remember the 1967 Caravelle flight belonging to Iberia that crashed while going into Heathrow. The bodies were all buried at Brookwood cemetery.
I think this is the one you are looking for. http://aviation-safety.net/database/...?id=19671104-1
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David
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Old 22nd Dec 2016, 04:13
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" and both streamed their brake chutes "

I seem to recall watching AF at MAN doing the same, albeit I think they also had a couple of other problems when landing, hence the stream.

Just being curious therefore as to how often operators did actually use this option, when, and why.
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Old 22nd Dec 2016, 07:38
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If I remember correctly, ETOPS is the permission for a twin engined aircraft to fly more than 60 minutes single engined from an alternative airport. Does anyone know if Kevlavik and Gander would fit a flightplan in that respect? If not, then these oceanic Caravelle flights are remarkable, for the twin engine 60 minute rule dates back to the '50s.
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Old 22nd Dec 2016, 07:50
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Originally Posted by Krystal n chips
" and both streamed their brake chutes "

I seem to recall watching AF at MAN doing the same, albeit I think they also had a couple of other problems when landing, hence the stream.

Just being curious therefore as to how often operators did actually use this option, when, and why.
The brake chutes were fitted because the early Caravelles did not have thrust reverse, I believe, so when runways were wet or icy or not sufficient headwind then the chute would be deployed.
Hope it helps
Be lucky
Dave
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Old 22nd Dec 2016, 09:33
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Originally Posted by JEM60
One of the victims was the actress June Thorburn, who had a part in 'The Cruel Sea'
I'd rather remember her in Gullivers Travels early 60s.
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Old 22nd Dec 2016, 11:08
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Caravelle III and VI-N (the earlier types) did not have thrust reversers on their Rolls Royce Avon engines. The VI-R (R for reverse) introduced this feature for the United order, as did the 10/11/12 types with P&W JT8Ds. Air France, among others, continued to buy the III model throughout, their last new one (airframe 260 out of 280 total produced) came in 1970.

Deploying the brake parachute was a nuisance for the station engineer, who was responsible for repacking it. At mainstream stations substitute ready-packed chutes were available for substitution, but if there were none then it was probably good if the engineer had some skydiving club experience. The chute could also be released on the runway after deployment, whereupon it might blow about until the engineer in their van managed to chase and catch it. This was yet another feature which caused the FAA to say about the original models "no way". As well as requiring the drop-down oxy system they also rejected the flight deck windows as being too small, so from the VI-R onwards these are notably larger.
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Old 22nd Dec 2016, 11:46
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I well remember the chief engineer of Irving Airchute trying to persuade us to use parachute braking on our airliners. We rejected the idea for much the reasons WHBM covers - i.e. release it after use and then try to catch it or else drag it on the ground and wear it out. It was said that a self-packing 'chute was being developed which could have solved that problem, but our operations specialist believed that pilots liked to be able to check that braking systems functioned whilst taxi-ing out - second nature with wheel brakes and airbrakes but impossible with a 'chute.

Back to Caravelles, in the early days of Airbus we often did day trips to Paris and found the 08:00 AF Caravelle (LHR-ORY) was less full than the 08:00 BEA Trident and often landed first! Returning in the evening we used BEA as we could leave the Sud Aviation office near the Bois de Boulogne by taxi at 16:45 and be on the 17:30 Trident (or Comet in one case) flight from Le Bourget.
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Old 22nd Dec 2016, 13:26
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Back in the mid 70's I worked on the 10 series aircraft when SATA in Zurich had 3 of them for flying down to the Med and other places. Main memories were the indifferent Flight systems/ILS and having to sit on the wing and top up the fuel tanks for the longer range flights!!
SATA also had DC8-50's and 63's which more my cup of tea. In those days, 4 engines were good.
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Old 22nd Dec 2016, 17:30
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Originally Posted by The AvgasDinosaur
so when runways were wet or icy or not sufficient headwind
Or when the runway was simply too short (AF charters to Edinburgh when it only had the 6,000' runway, for example).
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Old 22nd Dec 2016, 18:25
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If I remember correctly, ETOPS is the permission for a twin engined aircraft to fly more than 60 minutes single engined from an alternative airport. Does anyone know if Kevlavik and Gander would fit a flightplan in that respect? If not, then these oceanic Caravelle flights are remarkable, for the twin engine 60 minute rule dates back to the '50s.
I have an idea that the old rules were 90 mins from an alternate for twin engined aircraft.

In Etops times, several operators have used non ETOPS aircraft on North Atlantic ops. using a northern route to have Keflavik, Narssaraq, and Gander as alternates.

In a previous life, the company I worked for bid for a TNT route to JFK using A300-B4s, but an Icelandic airline got the contract.
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Old 22nd Dec 2016, 18:26
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I have John Weggs book, excellent reference manual.
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Old 22nd Dec 2016, 19:57
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Originally Posted by Cymmon
I have John Weggs book, excellent reference manual.
I.M.H.O. It's how aircraft type monographs should be written. The chapter on the Narco-Jets is worthy of a book on its own.
Highly professional , totally readable, so comprehensive a joy to read!
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David
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Old 22nd Dec 2016, 20:03
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My first and last flight in a Caravelle was with Air France from Heathrow to Nice in the summer of 1959, and it was my first experience of jet flight. (To put it into context, the Comet 4 and B707 had only been in service about 9 months, and IIRC only on the North Atlantic, although the Comet 1 had preceded both all-too-briefly in the early 1950s.)

The Caravelle's climb performance was a revelation after the piston and turboprop aeroplanes in which I'd flown previously, and the cabin was - of course - remarkably quiet by comparison.

I'd never seen or felt airbrakes before, and on that flight they were used a lot in the descent. IIRC, they slid out vertically from the wing and may have had holes in them. Cymmon and other possessors of the John Wegg book may be able to correct me on that?

We watched the a/c depart from Nice while waiting for our onward flight (by DC-6B) and were duly impressed by its T/O.

I think the (smaller) BAC 1-11 was a more elegant design with its T-Tail, but at least the Caravelle - AFAIK - didn't have the propensity to deep-stall.
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Old 22nd Dec 2016, 21:09
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Main memories were the indifferent Flight systems/ILS
Sud must have got to grips with this because not particularly realised is that the Caravelle was the first Autoland airliner, beating the Trident into service with a system which was fundamentally different. BEA's efforts on the Trident were driven primarily by winter fog at Heathrow impacting services, but Air Inter, particularly on Paris-Lyon, apparently got this even worse, and the route, number one French internal route in those days, was marginal with the train (nowadays the TGV has swept all before it between these cities).


I well remember the chief engineer of Irving Airchute trying to persuade us to use parachute braking on our airliners ... Back to Caravelles, in the early days of Airbus we often did day trips to Paris
Um ... you're not going to tell us that they were proposing braking parachutes on the A300 ???
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Old 23rd Dec 2016, 08:11
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Originally Posted by WHBM
Um ... you're not going to tell us that they were proposing braking parachutes on the A300 ???
I'm not, as it was while we were working on Trident derivatives and feeder liners and we needed lateral thinking to give the latter the airfield performance we thought we needed.
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Old 23rd Dec 2016, 17:26
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Hi Chris Scott, yes the Caravelle did indeed have air brakes on the wing, exactly as you describe..

I was lucky enough to be on the last Air Inter flight of the Caravelle 12.
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