Frank Whittle
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
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Frank Whittle
75th Anniversary of invention of jet engine coming up. An excellent biographical and anecdotal post by Tim Worstall to kick off a thread....
A fun story about Frank Whittle | Tim Worstall
A fun story about Frank Whittle | Tim Worstall
Hmm. At what point was it "invented" then?
When first proposed?
When first detailed design produced?
When working design first completed?
When first build completed?
When first run?
When first flown?
And who first achieved these milestones? This should produce a very blizzard of 75th anniversaries spread from, what? 1978 onwards...if we discount the alleged 18th century proposal for a "gas turbine" so we're perhaps a little late on parade for 75ths.
But I suppose such bigoted, warped, class-ridden twaddle as that link shouldn't be taken as serious information. It certainly didn't seem to contain much.
When first proposed?
When first detailed design produced?
When working design first completed?
When first build completed?
When first run?
When first flown?
And who first achieved these milestones? This should produce a very blizzard of 75th anniversaries spread from, what? 1978 onwards...if we discount the alleged 18th century proposal for a "gas turbine" so we're perhaps a little late on parade for 75ths.
But I suppose such bigoted, warped, class-ridden twaddle as that link shouldn't be taken as serious information. It certainly didn't seem to contain much.
Last edited by Wageslave; 9th May 2016 at 22:56.
Of course, this article slightly forgets about Hans Pabst von Ohain, his Heinkel S3B jet engine and the Heinkel 178 that took this engine into the air a little bit before the Gloster E.28/39.
As an obituary to his grandfather, this article has some merit, but historically, it is a bit challenged.
As an obituary to his grandfather, this article has some merit, but historically, it is a bit challenged.
I seem to remember, that the principle of jet propulsion was already described in the early 1900's. Building a working engine required high temperature alloys, which did not become available than in the 1940's.
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TU114
Do you seriously consider the Heinkel 178 to have been a practical demonstration of jet powered flight? I think you'll find that in most respects, FW got there first.
Do you seriously consider the Heinkel 178 to have been a practical demonstration of jet powered flight? I think you'll find that in most respects, FW got there first.
Last edited by Flying Palm Tree; 10th May 2016 at 09:25. Reason: HRH's English
Well... it was an aircraft that used nothing but one turbojet engine for propulsion, and it did fly a good while before the Gloster. So yes, for all practical purposes I consider the 178 a "practical demonstration of jet-powered flight".
The He 178 had a more powerful engine than the E28/39 ( over 1,100lb versus 750 lb of thrust). Both Gloster and Heinkel opted for twin engined follow ups as a basis to make a practicable jet fighter, these being the F9/40 (later Meteor) and the He 280.
The prototype He 280 first flew on April 2 1941, thus before the E28/39 (15 May 1941) and well over two years before the F9/40 ( 13 November 1943).
The prototype He 280 first flew on April 2 1941, thus before the E28/39 (15 May 1941) and well over two years before the F9/40 ( 13 November 1943).
Didn't good old Leonardo ds Vinci propose something like, but I guess wooden turbine blades would not be, as they say "fit for purpose", and even he was beaten by Hero
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I've just read Hooker's Not Much of an Engineer, and for the first time have got some sense of what was good about Whittle. Hooker, who first got established for his work on the Merlin supercharger, was obviously surprised, and a bit miffed, at how good Whittle's centrifugal impeller design was, and that Hooker couldn't improve it. Hooker is a bit equivocal on centrifugal vs axial compressors (it's not helped by the fact that he obviously loathed Griffith), but he says that Whittle's design was so good it was the more practical choice in the short term.
As a schoolboy in England, I was brought up on the Whittle myth (Whittle undervalued? which UK was that in?): as so often with British aviation history, it was turned into a morality tale about how bad Government is at doing everything, and Whittle was praised as a visionary, thwarted by civil servants. But there's a fine line between being visionary and being impractical, so it's good to get a sense from Hooker's autobiography that there was a lot more to Whittle than Leonardo-type big ideas.
As a schoolboy in England, I was brought up on the Whittle myth (Whittle undervalued? which UK was that in?): as so often with British aviation history, it was turned into a morality tale about how bad Government is at doing everything, and Whittle was praised as a visionary, thwarted by civil servants. But there's a fine line between being visionary and being impractical, so it's good to get a sense from Hooker's autobiography that there was a lot more to Whittle than Leonardo-type big ideas.
Sir Frank's son, Ian, flies from Fairoaks regularly. I'm told his last job before retiring was as a captain on Cathay 747s.
I've never asked about his father but I did read (Aeroplane Monthly?) that he was treated badly at the end of WW2 by the (Labour) government who nationalised his company, Power Jets and gave him hardly any compensation.
I've never asked about his father but I did read (Aeroplane Monthly?) that he was treated badly at the end of WW2 by the (Labour) government who nationalised his company, Power Jets and gave him hardly any compensation.
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Wikipedia and the Frank Whittle site Welcome to the Frank Whittle Website both put the nationalisation in 1944; Stafford Cripps the Minister, for sure, but under the coalition government. The rewards for inventors initial post-war payout of GBP 10,000 does look low, and was later raised (in 1948, also under a Labour government).
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Whittle was without doubt one of the world's greatest engineers and his invention changed our world for the better. At a time when his engines could run for 30 hours between overhaul, German engines could only run for 30 minutes before being stripped down and completely rebuilt. So yes, Whittle's engines were the first practical demonstration of jet propulsion.
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It Would Be Nice If this didn't turn into another "Did the Wright brothers invent the aeroplane?" thread.
It's pretty clear that there is a lot of collaborative history here, and lots of people were the first to get to a particular point, so one can only talk about a unique inventor if one cherry-picks the crucial point to suit a particular candidate.
It looks like von Ohain and Whittle were working independently, though Whittle was ahead. The report of von Ohain's comments on the Whittle patent, quoted in Wikipedia, show that even though he does seem to have become aware of Whittle's work earlier than he originally admitted, he had strongly developed ideas of his own already.
The other point is that a new development like this is not just a question of an inventor: there's the whole process of industrialization. Germany seems to have done better than the UK here. It sounds like Whittle's personality might have had some effect, but much more likely the contrast is between Whittle having NOT been born into the officer class, and so having a lot of headway to make up, whereas Ohain was von from the start, and had a smooth ride into academic employment at the U of Goettingen.
But Hooker's account of Whittle is very interesting, and different from the normal culture-hero myths. Any suggestions on good biographies of Whittle?
It's pretty clear that there is a lot of collaborative history here, and lots of people were the first to get to a particular point, so one can only talk about a unique inventor if one cherry-picks the crucial point to suit a particular candidate.
It looks like von Ohain and Whittle were working independently, though Whittle was ahead. The report of von Ohain's comments on the Whittle patent, quoted in Wikipedia, show that even though he does seem to have become aware of Whittle's work earlier than he originally admitted, he had strongly developed ideas of his own already.
The other point is that a new development like this is not just a question of an inventor: there's the whole process of industrialization. Germany seems to have done better than the UK here. It sounds like Whittle's personality might have had some effect, but much more likely the contrast is between Whittle having NOT been born into the officer class, and so having a lot of headway to make up, whereas Ohain was von from the start, and had a smooth ride into academic employment at the U of Goettingen.
But Hooker's account of Whittle is very interesting, and different from the normal culture-hero myths. Any suggestions on good biographies of Whittle?
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Whittle was without doubt one of the world's greatest engineers and his invention changed our world for the better. At a time when his engines could run for 30 hours between overhaul, German engines could only run for 30 minutes before being stripped down and completely rebuilt. So yes, Whittle's engines were the first practical demonstration of jet propulsion.
So Sir Frank Whittle changed the world for the better and Dr. Joachim Pabst von Ohain didnīt....?
And you donīt think that has had "something" to do with the materials situation in Germany at the time ?
So Sir Frank Whittle changed the world for the better and Dr. Joachim Pabst von Ohain didnīt....?
So Sir Frank Whittle changed the world for the better and Dr. Joachim Pabst von Ohain didnīt....?
Even the Allies who had access to exotic alloys etc struggled with axial flow blade design/ reliability for some years after 1945.
In short the Germans tried to run before they could walk with axial flow engines !
As an observation: the He 178 was powered by the HeS 3- with a centrifugal compressor.The He 280 , flying before the E28/39, was powered by two HeS 8 engines, which, at that stage, had purely centrifugal compressors.
In fairness centrifugal, axial, centrifugal/axial compressors and even ducted fans were initially developed around the Heinkel team and Ohain was keen to move to axial compressors post the HeS3 , one of the several arguments being the potential lower frontal area of the axially compressed jet engine.
I would agree that Longer ron is quite correct in his qualified overall assessment though.
However do note that when you look at the long thin turboprop nacelles as on Viscount, F27, Herald , Hs 748 et.al , you are looking at housings for Rolls Royce Darts:
centrifugally compressed engines.
In fairness centrifugal, axial, centrifugal/axial compressors and even ducted fans were initially developed around the Heinkel team and Ohain was keen to move to axial compressors post the HeS3 , one of the several arguments being the potential lower frontal area of the axially compressed jet engine.
I would agree that Longer ron is quite correct in his qualified overall assessment though.
However do note that when you look at the long thin turboprop nacelles as on Viscount, F27, Herald , Hs 748 et.al , you are looking at housings for Rolls Royce Darts:
centrifugally compressed engines.
Last edited by Haraka; 17th May 2016 at 08:47.
ISTR that when the Meteor entered service - Time Between Overhaul for the RR Welland was already 180 hours compared to the absolute life of 10 - 25 hrs for the Jumo jet engine - the German engines were simply not production standard - I know much has been made about lack of certain materials in germany but in my view they tried to run before they could walk with jet technology and would still have struggled with blade technology and engine control problems for a few more years yet even if there was not a shortage of certain materials for alloys etc.
Compare the design philosophy of both engines - The chunky RR Welland looks like it had a chance of running for quite a few hours safely but The Jumo looks fragile (especially the turbine LOL) and I honestly do not think it was a good design !
Compare the design philosophy of both engines - The chunky RR Welland looks like it had a chance of running for quite a few hours safely but The Jumo looks fragile (especially the turbine LOL) and I honestly do not think it was a good design !
Whittle was well aware that the axial flow compressor had the potential for a mass flow far in excess of the centrifugal compressor, however as engineers and scientists had not resolved the complex aerodynamic problems the axial flow presented he took the decision to use the proven centrifugal compressor
The Urmston Connection - a tribute to Dr. David Smith FRS.
Dr.David Smith was a mathematically gifted Scot living in Bowden Cheshire, employed by Metropolitan Vickers Trafford Park Manchester. David Smith had written several mathematical papers on the problems of steam turbine rotor stability and was held in deep respect for his analytical mind and use of the calculus.
The achievement for which David Smith will be best remembered was his role in the development of the first British axial flow jet engine for aircraft propulsion. I was fortunate enough to meet David Smith after his retirement. David passed away in 1986, and was described in his obituary published by the FRS as an 'intellectual giant' praise indeed from the institute.
Although he was a steam turbine design engineer within Metropolitan Vickers, David Smith, and others at the company were aware of the possibilities of the axial flow turbojet engine.
Originally, the first British axial-flow aircraft gas turbine B10 (Betty) was to have been built by the RAE (Royal Aircraft Establishment) the engines compressor was based on test data from experimental compressor 'Anne' built to a design by AA Griffith of the RAE and manufactured by Fraser and Chalmers. A senior scientist within the RAE, A.A.Griffith had published paper on gas turbine development as early as 1926, and together with Hayne Constant also of the RAE considered that the compressors of future gas turbines should be of the axial type; However, the RAE did not have the manufacturing or research capability to make this aerodynamically complex compressor work on a scale sufficient to power an aircraft.
In 1937 discussions took place between the RAE and Metropolitan Vickers chief engineer Dr. Karl Baumann who in turn appointed Dr. David Smith to lead the design, development and manufacturing team. Work started at the company the following year under an Air Ministry Contract.
The experimental non-flight engine B10 had proved successful, with a compression ratio of 2:1. B10 amazed engineers by running happily with the turbine casing glowing with a dull red heat.
As war broke out and the Trafford Park Factory became committed to war work and space was at a premium, B10 had set fire to the research facility so it was decided to extend a small overspeed test cell which had been built in some secrecy on land off Barton Dock Road Urmston Manchester with a view to relocate all gas turbine research and development. For a brief period the salt mines in Wincham had been used for engine testing, however pollution and fog from the nearby industrial town of Northwich caused contamination of the compressor blading which effected performance tests so all efforts were concentrated at 'Barton Test'.
The first flight engine F2 (Freda) ran in a test cell during December 1942, by June 1943 an F2 engine of 1800 lb static thrust was altitude tested in the tail of a Lancaster Bomber. The Lancaster which operated from the RAE Farnborough became the topic of much local discussion as it flew over the Manchester area. Interestingly the aircraft allocated by the ministry was the Lancaster prototype which proved to be most unreliable, much to the frustration of Dr. Smith and the Metrovic team.
The first aircraft to be powered by and axial flow turbojet was a Gloster F/9 40 Meteor aircraft, the flight took place at the RAE on the 13th November 1943.
Metrovic continued turbojet development, the last flight engine being the F9 Sapphire, the design of which was handed to Armstong Siddley when Metropolitan Vickers decided to opt out of aircraft gas turbines and concentrate manufacturing and development on Industrial and Marine steam and gas turbines.
Dr.David Smith was a mathematically gifted Scot living in Bowden Cheshire, employed by Metropolitan Vickers Trafford Park Manchester. David Smith had written several mathematical papers on the problems of steam turbine rotor stability and was held in deep respect for his analytical mind and use of the calculus.
The achievement for which David Smith will be best remembered was his role in the development of the first British axial flow jet engine for aircraft propulsion. I was fortunate enough to meet David Smith after his retirement. David passed away in 1986, and was described in his obituary published by the FRS as an 'intellectual giant' praise indeed from the institute.
Although he was a steam turbine design engineer within Metropolitan Vickers, David Smith, and others at the company were aware of the possibilities of the axial flow turbojet engine.
Originally, the first British axial-flow aircraft gas turbine B10 (Betty) was to have been built by the RAE (Royal Aircraft Establishment) the engines compressor was based on test data from experimental compressor 'Anne' built to a design by AA Griffith of the RAE and manufactured by Fraser and Chalmers. A senior scientist within the RAE, A.A.Griffith had published paper on gas turbine development as early as 1926, and together with Hayne Constant also of the RAE considered that the compressors of future gas turbines should be of the axial type; However, the RAE did not have the manufacturing or research capability to make this aerodynamically complex compressor work on a scale sufficient to power an aircraft.
In 1937 discussions took place between the RAE and Metropolitan Vickers chief engineer Dr. Karl Baumann who in turn appointed Dr. David Smith to lead the design, development and manufacturing team. Work started at the company the following year under an Air Ministry Contract.
The experimental non-flight engine B10 had proved successful, with a compression ratio of 2:1. B10 amazed engineers by running happily with the turbine casing glowing with a dull red heat.
As war broke out and the Trafford Park Factory became committed to war work and space was at a premium, B10 had set fire to the research facility so it was decided to extend a small overspeed test cell which had been built in some secrecy on land off Barton Dock Road Urmston Manchester with a view to relocate all gas turbine research and development. For a brief period the salt mines in Wincham had been used for engine testing, however pollution and fog from the nearby industrial town of Northwich caused contamination of the compressor blading which effected performance tests so all efforts were concentrated at 'Barton Test'.
The first flight engine F2 (Freda) ran in a test cell during December 1942, by June 1943 an F2 engine of 1800 lb static thrust was altitude tested in the tail of a Lancaster Bomber. The Lancaster which operated from the RAE Farnborough became the topic of much local discussion as it flew over the Manchester area. Interestingly the aircraft allocated by the ministry was the Lancaster prototype which proved to be most unreliable, much to the frustration of Dr. Smith and the Metrovic team.
The first aircraft to be powered by and axial flow turbojet was a Gloster F/9 40 Meteor aircraft, the flight took place at the RAE on the 13th November 1943.
Metrovic continued turbojet development, the last flight engine being the F9 Sapphire, the design of which was handed to Armstong Siddley when Metropolitan Vickers decided to opt out of aircraft gas turbines and concentrate manufacturing and development on Industrial and Marine steam and gas turbines.