BEA Trident London - Moscow 1971
As a postscript to the Trident 3 booster engine decommissioning debate, I've been re-reading Max Kingsley-Jones's excellent monograph on the Trident.
He recounts a jump seat trip he made to Oslo during the last month of BA Trident operations (December 1985), where the boost engine was used not just on the return leg (where it was essential in the Norwegian winter) but also on takeoff at LHR to confirm its serviceability.
The book contains a number of photos of the RB162 in action (discernable by the open intake doors), including a May 1986 shot of the last of the 5 T3s sold to ACS of Zaire, which was the last ever Trident flight from LHR.
He recounts a jump seat trip he made to Oslo during the last month of BA Trident operations (December 1985), where the boost engine was used not just on the return leg (where it was essential in the Norwegian winter) but also on takeoff at LHR to confirm its serviceability.
The book contains a number of photos of the RB162 in action (discernable by the open intake doors), including a May 1986 shot of the last of the 5 T3s sold to ACS of Zaire, which was the last ever Trident flight from LHR.
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There's some pretty solid evidence then. "He recounts a jump seat trip he made to Oslo during the last month of BA Trident operations (December 1985), where the boost engine was used not just on the return leg (where it was essential in the Norwegian winter) but also on takeoff at LHR to confirm its serviceability" could be taken as confirming the irregular use of the engine. I just wonder if the flight would have been pulled had the RB162 decided not to co-operate.
The aircraft sold to Zaire were 'ZC, 'ZD, 'ZF and 'ZG with 'ZV as a spares back up. None were regular shuttle performers through the 1980s so presumably their RB162s were not decommissioned and they were allocated to European routes.
The aircraft sold to Zaire were 'ZC, 'ZD, 'ZF and 'ZG with 'ZV as a spares back up. None were regular shuttle performers through the 1980s so presumably their RB162s were not decommissioned and they were allocated to European routes.
There's some pretty solid evidence then. "He recounts a jump seat trip he made to Oslo during the last month of BA Trident operations (December 1985), where the boost engine was used not just on the return leg (where it was essential in the Norwegian winter) but also on takeoff at LHR to confirm its serviceability" could be taken as confirming the irregular use of the engine. I just wonder if the flight would have been pulled had the RB162 decided not to co-operate.
I was simply quoting that extract as evidence that the T3 boost engine was being used, as and when required, right up to the end of BA Trident operations, which I think we're now agreed on.
I do not know all the airfields the T3 had to have boost engine reasons of short runway alone rather weight hot weather etc for other than EDI before the new runway and Oslo Fornebu any other offers.
If i cd drift the thread a little goijg bck to start about BEA and BOAC doing Moscow in the BALHR T3 lounge there is a poster saying fly BOAC to the Helsinki Olympics, could that be right.
If i cd drift the thread a little goijg bck to start about BEA and BOAC doing Moscow in the BALHR T3 lounge there is a poster saying fly BOAC to the Helsinki Olympics, could that be right.
If i cd drift the thread a little goijg bck to start about BEA and BOAC doing Moscow in the BALHR T3 lounge there is a poster saying fly BOAC to the Helsinki Olympics, could that be right.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1952-BOAC-...-/291411463505
Dave,
How did that get approved? I thought that reverse thrust wasn't factored into landing distance calculations.
How did that get approved? I thought that reverse thrust wasn't factored into landing distance calculations.
SOP was full reverse coming over the fence, as was the case for other short fields it operated into.
He recounts a jump seat trip he made to Oslo during the last month of BA Trident operations (December 1985), where the boost engine was used not just on the return leg (where it was essential in the Norwegian winter) but also on takeoff at LHR to confirm its serviceability
Last edited by Discorde; 20th Jul 2016 at 17:28.
Full reverse over the fence...
Did that come with other operational requirements, like a slight increment to Va, increased power on #2 or a different flare technique? Or was the (presumably) firm arrival intended to happen?
Did that come with other operational requirements, like a slight increment to Va, increased power on #2 or a different flare technique? Or was the (presumably) firm arrival intended to happen?
I don't know what effect, if any, it had on scheduled speeds, but I can vouch for the fact that every T3 landing I experienced on 13 or 31 at EDI was reassuringly firm, to say the least.
A bit more background on the Trident reverse-in-the-flare technique from an old PPRuNe thread:
http://www.pprune.org/tech-log/43449...stem-autoland-
Maybe my memory isn't so bad after all.
The Trident NORMAL landing procedure as noted earlier in this thread, is to close the throttles and select reverse idle (pod engines obviously) IN THE FLARE. This was actioned by the P2 as non-handling pilot, the handling pilot P1 having both hands on the yoke. Optionally one could then select FULL reverse while in the flare, and this was a very effective technique on short or wet runways as the Trident had pretty mediocre brakes. So the crew brief for this technique, in the flare the call is “Power off and full reverse”. The P2 closes the thrust levers and immediately pulls up the reverser levers, the buckets deploy and the pod engines never spool down but increase RPM from the approach value to close to full power for a few moments, then back to idle as the aircraft slows.
Maybe my memory isn't so bad after all.
Thank You for the explanation, DaveReid. A most interesting topic. I find the philosophy of having P1 control only the flight controls and P2 handling the power levers remarkable. On the very few FADEC-less types I know, the PNF only set rated power as this involved longer heads-down time inappropriate for the PF (DH8-300 always, F70/100 only when both Autothrottle channels were u/s), but all the other time, the power levers were in the PFs domain.
Did P2 have his hands on the power levers during the entire approach, or was there a transfer of power lever control at some point?
Did P2 have his hands on the power levers during the entire approach, or was there a transfer of power lever control at some point?
Did P2 have his hands on the power levers during the entire approach, or was there a transfer of power lever control at some point?
Thank You, Discorde. This is a peculiar procedure indeed, calling for rather good understanding between the pilots. There must have been some reaction time between the P1s call for reverse and the response of P2, making the difference between a nice, smooth landing and ... well, something deserving to be called "arrival" rather than "landing".
At a risk of a thread drift, but thinking about it, I remember having heard of a similar SOP on the IL-62 with Interflug (although there not the P2, but the F/E pulled the reverse on the handling pilots request), occasionally raising the question of which one of the two was responsible for the impact that just occurred. Such "shared" operation of the flight controls seems to have been not uncommon a while ago.
At a risk of a thread drift, but thinking about it, I remember having heard of a similar SOP on the IL-62 with Interflug (although there not the P2, but the F/E pulled the reverse on the handling pilots request), occasionally raising the question of which one of the two was responsible for the impact that just occurred. Such "shared" operation of the flight controls seems to have been not uncommon a while ago.
Hi guys , at the risk of 30 ½ years away from currency ; a few memories .
Boost was not disconnected on T3bs , they might have gone u/s and not been mended towards the end [ 31/Dec 85 ].
Last trip was 29/11/85 , used boost out of the old short Munich a/p [ was pulled off the fleet early for a 737 course ]. Might have been for fun ‘tho . Helped deliver empty G-AWZZ to Brum fire services Nov/84 . used boost for fun to try a V2 climb to 2400’ , then a 500’ fly by of Wycombe Airpark [ Booker ] .
Had it break on a snowy Glasgow [GLA] dep , with snow at LHR . We needed it to carry a full load and the needed extra fuel for a bad day out ! Had to sit at runway end powering up to burn off extra fuel . Took quite a while , and we only just made it to LHR on minimum reserves , before one runway shut for snow clearing , and the other got blocked by a new 757 careering around .
Old Edinburgh [EDI] runway 13 /31 certainly had T3s in and out , and very often landing with a limiting tailwind …over running into the cabbage field at the end . Aberdeen [ ABZ ]was the same , an ILS only to one end , and with the Haar in , it was needed …. But landing with a max tailwind … T1/2s normally ok , but T3s often in the field .
A version of normal ops was 10,000 LP rpm in the flare , if timed right it cushioned / kissed you on . If not , thump . ABZ , when skipper asked for reverse …he meant emergency reverse [ pull those levers ‘til they came off in your hand , but you had 12,000 LP rpm ] .
Throttle handling was a bit different . In auto flight , the handling pilot operated a/p and a/t .
In manual flight handling pilot flew the a/c and asked non- handling pilot for the power he required , [ in LP rpm ] ‘’ ten – eight [ 10800 ] , eleven [ 11,000 ] , twelve thousnd [12,000] , power off , Reverse idle , REVERSE ‘’ , etc .
It was not until Mr Wu [ T1E G-ASWU ex Cyprus Airways] came back from it sojourn in Nicosia [ ’74 war ] , that the 1 and 2 fleet had a 1E to play with . Complete with GT throttles ; which were cranked backwards 2/3 rds of the way up . Bliss…. handling pilot could now reach the throttles from a comfortable seating / flying position ; so non standardly several skippers allowed us to do our own power settings whilst flying manually …. Easy peasy . But impossible in the BEA ordered 1Cs , 2E s and 3Bs with straight up throttles out of reach ; which is why I guess we did not handle our own power when manually flying !
Rgds condor .
PS, ‘’reassuringly firm’’…… = ‘positive touchdown on a wet runway , to ensure wheel spin up , max braking , avoiding aquaplaning ‘ .
PPS, 17 static wicks on a 737-200 … if 1 missing then performance implications .
PPPS , extremely lucky to have 4 very happy years in Highland Division , lots of PDB ‘ pur dead brilliant ‘[ GLA accent ] guys and gurls in back , front , left or right seats .
Boost was not disconnected on T3bs , they might have gone u/s and not been mended towards the end [ 31/Dec 85 ].
Last trip was 29/11/85 , used boost out of the old short Munich a/p [ was pulled off the fleet early for a 737 course ]. Might have been for fun ‘tho . Helped deliver empty G-AWZZ to Brum fire services Nov/84 . used boost for fun to try a V2 climb to 2400’ , then a 500’ fly by of Wycombe Airpark [ Booker ] .
Had it break on a snowy Glasgow [GLA] dep , with snow at LHR . We needed it to carry a full load and the needed extra fuel for a bad day out ! Had to sit at runway end powering up to burn off extra fuel . Took quite a while , and we only just made it to LHR on minimum reserves , before one runway shut for snow clearing , and the other got blocked by a new 757 careering around .
Old Edinburgh [EDI] runway 13 /31 certainly had T3s in and out , and very often landing with a limiting tailwind …over running into the cabbage field at the end . Aberdeen [ ABZ ]was the same , an ILS only to one end , and with the Haar in , it was needed …. But landing with a max tailwind … T1/2s normally ok , but T3s often in the field .
A version of normal ops was 10,000 LP rpm in the flare , if timed right it cushioned / kissed you on . If not , thump . ABZ , when skipper asked for reverse …he meant emergency reverse [ pull those levers ‘til they came off in your hand , but you had 12,000 LP rpm ] .
Throttle handling was a bit different . In auto flight , the handling pilot operated a/p and a/t .
In manual flight handling pilot flew the a/c and asked non- handling pilot for the power he required , [ in LP rpm ] ‘’ ten – eight [ 10800 ] , eleven [ 11,000 ] , twelve thousnd [12,000] , power off , Reverse idle , REVERSE ‘’ , etc .
It was not until Mr Wu [ T1E G-ASWU ex Cyprus Airways] came back from it sojourn in Nicosia [ ’74 war ] , that the 1 and 2 fleet had a 1E to play with . Complete with GT throttles ; which were cranked backwards 2/3 rds of the way up . Bliss…. handling pilot could now reach the throttles from a comfortable seating / flying position ; so non standardly several skippers allowed us to do our own power settings whilst flying manually …. Easy peasy . But impossible in the BEA ordered 1Cs , 2E s and 3Bs with straight up throttles out of reach ; which is why I guess we did not handle our own power when manually flying !
Rgds condor .
PS, ‘’reassuringly firm’’…… = ‘positive touchdown on a wet runway , to ensure wheel spin up , max braking , avoiding aquaplaning ‘ .
PPS, 17 static wicks on a 737-200 … if 1 missing then performance implications .
PPPS , extremely lucky to have 4 very happy years in Highland Division , lots of PDB ‘ pur dead brilliant ‘[ GLA accent ] guys and gurls in back , front , left or right seats .
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Only flew on the T3 twice when for some reason BA where using them on bucket and spade routes for British Airtours. I flew to Alicantie and back (from Manchester).
I couldn't believe how quiet it was inside but so damn noisy outside (I was in row 3 both ways I think).
I also remember covering the last operation out of Manchester on 31 Dec 1985, cant remember the reg but it was a T3 and flew the mid morning shuttle into Man then did a pleasure flight before returning back as the evening shuttle. It was a cold overcast day and we where sitting at the end of 24 waiting for the overshoot at the end of the pleasure flight taking photos for a local rag.
I couldn't believe how quiet it was inside but so damn noisy outside (I was in row 3 both ways I think).
I also remember covering the last operation out of Manchester on 31 Dec 1985, cant remember the reg but it was a T3 and flew the mid morning shuttle into Man then did a pleasure flight before returning back as the evening shuttle. It was a cold overcast day and we where sitting at the end of 24 waiting for the overshoot at the end of the pleasure flight taking photos for a local rag.
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It was "Zulu Oscar" operating BA4513 from Manchester which was the last Trident Three landing at Heathrow carrying passengers being a fraction of a second behind a LHR-AMS-LHR charter operated by "Zulu Victor". "Zulu Victor" had operated BA's last scheduled international Trident Three service to/from Copenhagen earlier that day. I was fortunate and had flown to Copenhagen and back then on that last Shuttle flight. Happy Days.