How reliable was the Avro York
My maternal Uncle, Sidney P Smith, flew on Yorks with 51 Sq from Waterbeach between May and December 1947. According to his logbook most trips were via Lineham (sic) to Changi with stops at Luqa, Fayid, Habaniya, Mauripur and Negombo and variations. Nothing in the log suggests he was personally involved in any engine failures or similar.
His RAF service was one of many things I was never able to have an adult conversation with him about; he died suddenly in 1983 at the age of 60. At the time I was in my early twenties and too busy chasing girls etc to be a devoted nephew, expecting that like his Mother and her brothers he'd make 80+.
I'd long assumed that his records were lost but after his widow (who remarried) and her second husband both died his logbook, dog tags, several manuals and some photographs were found and returned to myself and my sister.
His RAF service was one of many things I was never able to have an adult conversation with him about; he died suddenly in 1983 at the age of 60. At the time I was in my early twenties and too busy chasing girls etc to be a devoted nephew, expecting that like his Mother and her brothers he'd make 80+.
I'd long assumed that his records were lost but after his widow (who remarried) and her second husband both died his logbook, dog tags, several manuals and some photographs were found and returned to myself and my sister.
Last edited by Airbanda; 12th Nov 2015 at 19:55.
" the JU52 was a better three engined aircraft than the York",
It now lives in Seff Efrica.
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Engine oil pumping in the air was SOP for the Beverley. Though I never heard of the requirement to feather the engine.
It was done by means of a manual operated pump in 'the dog kennel', just aft of the flight deck.
It was done by means of a manual operated pump in 'the dog kennel', just aft of the flight deck.
AFAIK the York was basically a Lancaster with a big "box" fuselage to carry cargo. The important thing in those days was that it had four engines and not just two...
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A cargo-carrying box?
I'll have you know that, we in Oz, post-war, were proud to have a York as our Vice-Regal VIP aircraft.
Finished in all-over gleaming white and sumptuously fitted out on the inside, there was nothing to match it this side of the equator, I believe.
Special sound insulation had been installed, but I gather that it only reduced post-flight deafness from three days to one.
Were they any quieter on just three engines?
I'll have you know that, we in Oz, post-war, were proud to have a York as our Vice-Regal VIP aircraft.
Finished in all-over gleaming white and sumptuously fitted out on the inside, there was nothing to match it this side of the equator, I believe.
Special sound insulation had been installed, but I gather that it only reduced post-flight deafness from three days to one.
Were they any quieter on just three engines?
The Avro York - once described by an American as "That three fin, four fan aloominum spam can"....
Cruel. But fair.
As for performance, around 800 ft/min rate of climb on 4 engines. Wasn't the base level of the London TMA designed to cater for a 'York on 3' departing London Airport?
Cruel. But fair.
As for performance, around 800 ft/min rate of climb on 4 engines. Wasn't the base level of the London TMA designed to cater for a 'York on 3' departing London Airport?
Beverley in-flight oil replenishment - most definitely NO requirement to shut down engines!! The pump was, indeed, in the 'dog kennel' which was accessed via a small circular entrance in the rear bulkhead of the equipment bay behind the flight deck. There was four-way selector and a contents gauge with a manual pump handle. It was hard work ... the oil thickened after a few hours at 8-10k and, FEs being 'Johnny-come-latelys' on Bevs, the job was done by Siggies in the early days.
One little aside - on a long overseas with a skipper from my Valetta days, I was supervising a new guy and spent a lot of time 'minding the shop' in the right hand seat. Part way through one such, with the skipper on meal break, the co volunteered to 'top up'. and there were a few seconds of alarm as I watched the oil temps winding down as the COLD oil entered the system!
One little aside - on a long overseas with a skipper from my Valetta days, I was supervising a new guy and spent a lot of time 'minding the shop' in the right hand seat. Part way through one such, with the skipper on meal break, the co volunteered to 'top up'. and there were a few seconds of alarm as I watched the oil temps winding down as the COLD oil entered the system!
"Mildly" Eccentric Stardriver
This is directly from someone who was an engine fitter on the York.
"Dennis said the engines were very reliable and almost 100%. He knew of no issue, during the Berlin airlift they set up a workshop in the hangar to make modifications on the engine to improve it but they never had a failure."
"Dennis said the engines were very reliable and almost 100%. He knew of no issue, during the Berlin airlift they set up a workshop in the hangar to make modifications on the engine to improve it but they never had a failure."
Believe it or not, some major bases actually had lubricating oil bowsers in the 1950s !
The Merlin was probably the principal in-line engine through the prop era, most others favoured radials, the US especially but also Bristol Siddeley with the Hercules, Centaurus, etc. By the design of the radial, with the crankshaft in the centre and the pistons all around, it was just not possible to make it oil-tight as it expanded and cooled, and on the ground lube from the crankshaft would seep into the lower pistons, to be burnt off on startup, hence the (sometimes huge) smoke cloud. "LVPs for five minutes after starting".
The York was a favourite for a "rescue" aircraft for the major British airlines, BOAC especially, who kept a couple (at least) chartered from Skyways and others employed well into the Britannia and jet era of the early 1960s just ferrying large AOG components, principally engines, out to wherever they were grounded. They were actually based at BOAC's Heathrow maintenance area all ready to go wherever with whatever.
The last York in service was G-ANTK with Dan-Air, withdrawn in May 1964, the aircraft now in the museum at Duxford.
The Merlin was probably the principal in-line engine through the prop era, most others favoured radials, the US especially but also Bristol Siddeley with the Hercules, Centaurus, etc. By the design of the radial, with the crankshaft in the centre and the pistons all around, it was just not possible to make it oil-tight as it expanded and cooled, and on the ground lube from the crankshaft would seep into the lower pistons, to be burnt off on startup, hence the (sometimes huge) smoke cloud. "LVPs for five minutes after starting".
The York was a favourite for a "rescue" aircraft for the major British airlines, BOAC especially, who kept a couple (at least) chartered from Skyways and others employed well into the Britannia and jet era of the early 1960s just ferrying large AOG components, principally engines, out to wherever they were grounded. They were actually based at BOAC's Heathrow maintenance area all ready to go wherever with whatever.
The last York in service was G-ANTK with Dan-Air, withdrawn in May 1964, the aircraft now in the museum at Duxford.
Last edited by WHBM; 14th Nov 2015 at 06:23.
A friend of mine told me the other day that he lost an engine on a York just after take-off from Khartoum. They couldn't get above 300 feet but did manage a low level circuit and a successful landing.
1953-1955 I was based at Biggin Hill and recall a RAF York used to visit occasionally, we were told it did practice runs in case the then prime minister Sir Winston Churchill (who lived locally to Biggin at Chartwell near Westerham) was taken ill whilst on one of his frequent trips to the south of France, in the even I don't think it was ever used for this purpose, but its arrival was of interest, but sadly didn't photograph it.
A bit here from Flight Magazine of 22 March 1957 about the last York in RAF service:
A bit here from Flight Magazine of 22 March 1957 about the last York in RAF service:
Last of the RAF Avro Yorks
Last of the R.A.F. Avro Yorks, ‘MW295 Ascalon II' returned a week ago to the United Kingdom from the F.E.A.F. communications squadron at Changi, Singapore, for disposal as surplus to R.A.F. requirements. It was named after the first production model York, LV633, which appeared in 1943 and was called Ascalon (the sword with which St. George slew the dragon) at the suggestion of W/Cdr. H. B. Collins, then c.o. of No. 24 Sqn. As a V.V.I.P. aircraft, Ascalon flew King George VI, Mr. Winston Churchill and many other wartime passengers. After the war, LV633 went to the Far East and was eventually replaced by Ascalon II, which was taken out to Singapore in 1954 by S/L. Douglas Boards, personal pilot to Air Marshal Sir Francis Fressanges, C-in-C. F.E.A.F. S/L. Boards speaks proudly of Ascalon II’s reliability; in his three years and 1,600 hours’ flying experience of it, the aircraft has only four times been delayed in take-off.
Last of the R.A.F. Avro Yorks, ‘MW295 Ascalon II' returned a week ago to the United Kingdom from the F.E.A.F. communications squadron at Changi, Singapore, for disposal as surplus to R.A.F. requirements. It was named after the first production model York, LV633, which appeared in 1943 and was called Ascalon (the sword with which St. George slew the dragon) at the suggestion of W/Cdr. H. B. Collins, then c.o. of No. 24 Sqn. As a V.V.I.P. aircraft, Ascalon flew King George VI, Mr. Winston Churchill and many other wartime passengers. After the war, LV633 went to the Far East and was eventually replaced by Ascalon II, which was taken out to Singapore in 1954 by S/L. Douglas Boards, personal pilot to Air Marshal Sir Francis Fressanges, C-in-C. F.E.A.F. S/L. Boards speaks proudly of Ascalon II’s reliability; in his three years and 1,600 hours’ flying experience of it, the aircraft has only four times been delayed in take-off.
e.g. compare Scampton-Berlin and back without landing once per night with
the Berlin Airlift duty Hamburg-Berlin Berlin-Hamburg several times a day
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How (un)reliable was the York compared with other transport aircraft of its era? I gather that shutting down one motor in flight was a pretty common event at that time. Was the York better or worse? Which is, perhaps, a question about the Merlin in civil use. The DC4/North Star might give a good comparison.
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The Avro York was trusted to transport Winston Churchill to Canada for his visit in 1949.
A link to some history of Canadian operated Avro Yorks:
Warbird Information Exchange ? View topic - Avro Yorks in Canada
The harsh operating conditions of Canada took their toll on civilian Avro Yorks operated in the 1950s.
Here is a list of crashed Avro Yorks in Canada. (Note some crashes occurred on the same day, and one crash occurred within a one day of another crash).
2 February 1953: A Skyways York crashed into sea off Newfoundland (island), Canada after a SOS was called by the pilots. The wreck of the aircraft was never found; all 39 passengers and crew died.
11 April 1955: An Associated Airways York crashed on take off at Yellowknife, NWT, Canada.
12 April 1955: An Arctic Wings York was damaged beyond repair after hitting a snow bank at Hall Beach DEW LINE aerodrome, NWT, Canada.
26 May 1955: An Associated Airways York was damaged beyond repair after hitting an obstacle on take off from Edmonton Municipal Airport, Alberta, Canada.
29 September 1955: An Associated Airways York was damaged beyond repair after ditching in the Thoa River, 180 km north of Beaverlodge, SK, Canada.
24 January 1956: A Maritime Central Airways York was damaged beyond repair during a forced landing at Fort Chimo, Quebec, Canada.
13 September 1956: A Pacific Western Airlines York was damaged beyond repair after an accident at Cape Perry, North West Territories, Canada.
13 September 1956: A Transair (Canada) York was damaged beyond repair after over-running the runway at Hall Beach DEW LINE aerodrome, Northwest Territories, Canada.
26 September 1956: A Maritime Central Airways York was damaged beyond repair in a forced landing in Fort Chimo, Quebec, Canada.
8 January 1957: A Transair (Canada) York was destroyed by fire after crash landing on a lake near Rankin Inlet, NWT, Canada.
A link to some history of Canadian operated Avro Yorks:
Warbird Information Exchange ? View topic - Avro Yorks in Canada
The harsh operating conditions of Canada took their toll on civilian Avro Yorks operated in the 1950s.
Here is a list of crashed Avro Yorks in Canada. (Note some crashes occurred on the same day, and one crash occurred within a one day of another crash).
2 February 1953: A Skyways York crashed into sea off Newfoundland (island), Canada after a SOS was called by the pilots. The wreck of the aircraft was never found; all 39 passengers and crew died.
11 April 1955: An Associated Airways York crashed on take off at Yellowknife, NWT, Canada.
12 April 1955: An Arctic Wings York was damaged beyond repair after hitting a snow bank at Hall Beach DEW LINE aerodrome, NWT, Canada.
26 May 1955: An Associated Airways York was damaged beyond repair after hitting an obstacle on take off from Edmonton Municipal Airport, Alberta, Canada.
29 September 1955: An Associated Airways York was damaged beyond repair after ditching in the Thoa River, 180 km north of Beaverlodge, SK, Canada.
24 January 1956: A Maritime Central Airways York was damaged beyond repair during a forced landing at Fort Chimo, Quebec, Canada.
13 September 1956: A Pacific Western Airlines York was damaged beyond repair after an accident at Cape Perry, North West Territories, Canada.
13 September 1956: A Transair (Canada) York was damaged beyond repair after over-running the runway at Hall Beach DEW LINE aerodrome, Northwest Territories, Canada.
26 September 1956: A Maritime Central Airways York was damaged beyond repair in a forced landing in Fort Chimo, Quebec, Canada.
8 January 1957: A Transair (Canada) York was destroyed by fire after crash landing on a lake near Rankin Inlet, NWT, Canada.
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SACSEA/Viceregal York MW102 was allocated to Lord Mountbatten during his time at South East Asia command, and afterwards when he was the last Viceroy. Negotiations around the independence/separation of India and Pakistan involved extensive travel, both within the region and to and from the UK. Lady Mountbatten and Pamela, his daughter, accompanied him on many of these trips, suggesting that he must have had a lot of confidence in the reliability and safety of the aircraft, as indeed, must those in London.
As an aside, I recall reading that he was always insistent on keeping the outside of the aircraft looking immaculate, and consequently after each trip, several men would be immediately sent out, cloths and cans of Brasso in hand, to get to work polishing. Rivet loss was common with this type of aircraft, and the constant polishing of the rivet heads just served to make matters worse, so another group would also have to be busy spotting and replacing all the lost rivets.
As an aside, I recall reading that he was always insistent on keeping the outside of the aircraft looking immaculate, and consequently after each trip, several men would be immediately sent out, cloths and cans of Brasso in hand, to get to work polishing. Rivet loss was common with this type of aircraft, and the constant polishing of the rivet heads just served to make matters worse, so another group would also have to be busy spotting and replacing all the lost rivets.
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I spent as much time as I could at Lasham in 1958/9 learning to fly a glider (under Derek Piggott), and then working up to Silver C.
The smooth functioning of the gliding operation was interrupted at intervals by arrivals and departures of Dan Air Yorks. I cannot recall one arriving with all 4 engines running, although I suppose it could have happened. Sometimes there were only 2.
Departures after repair/maintenance were always exciting; usually two or three attempts were needed, separated by short hangar visits to rectify whatever had caused the take-off to be abandoned.
All the launching wires had to be cleared for these interruptions (2 winch, 1 tow-car), as well as any gliders parked too near the runway.
I really don't think you can use the words "reliable" and "York" in the same sentence.
The smooth functioning of the gliding operation was interrupted at intervals by arrivals and departures of Dan Air Yorks. I cannot recall one arriving with all 4 engines running, although I suppose it could have happened. Sometimes there were only 2.
Departures after repair/maintenance were always exciting; usually two or three attempts were needed, separated by short hangar visits to rectify whatever had caused the take-off to be abandoned.
All the launching wires had to be cleared for these interruptions (2 winch, 1 tow-car), as well as any gliders parked too near the runway.
I really don't think you can use the words "reliable" and "York" in the same sentence.
Thread Starter
One of the joys of early retirement is finding the time to catch up on some reading. Thus in "Diamond Flight", the story of British Midland by Bill Gunston, there is an explanation of the problems found on the Merlin 724 used in the Derby Airways DC-4Ms. Apparently incorrect settings of rpm and manifold pressure for a given pressure altitude gave rise to burnt exhaust valves. This was exacerbated by the use of a detergent oil which put a sticky residue on the valve stems which prevented rotation so the exhaust flame always attacked the same area round the tulip head, literally burning away that portion.
As a result Derby Airways suffered a long series of inflight featherings and exploded exhaust systems. I can't imagine that the York wouldn't have had similar problems.
As a result Derby Airways suffered a long series of inflight featherings and exploded exhaust systems. I can't imagine that the York wouldn't have had similar problems.